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'[EE]:: Chinese SMD assembler required'
2008\08\11@021518 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
I'm looking for a competent Chinese mainland based SMD
assembler.
There are probably about 3 zillion of these but a personal
recommendation based on good success may be useful.
Preference is a manufacturer who will accept moderate
production volume capability but have the ability to rise to
reasonably large volumes over time. Nice to have are
commitment to quality, good communications, commercially
realistic turnaround times.

Two layer pth, around 50 single sided components. Mainly
discretes. Nothing challenging and not overly dense. Two
small SO ICs.
Three through hole wiring connectors - could be added
afterwards.

Production outside mainland China (ROC or elsewhere) is
conceivable but overall cost after all aspects are
considered would need to be competitive.

Any recommendations?


       R

2008\08\11@042503 by Richard Prosser

picon face
We have had minimal problems with Flextronics in Dongguan. But they
are not the cheapest & tend toward the high volume production end of
things. Their display cabinet shows  product they have manufactured
for Sanyo etc. for example.

RP

2008/8/11 Apptech <spam_OUTapptechTakeThisOuTspamparadise.net.nz>:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\08\11@081409 by olin piclist

face picon face
Apptech wrote:
> I'm looking for a competent Chinese mainland based SMD
> assembler.

I wouldn't start out specifying where your assembler needs to be unless
maybe the product itself and its distribution is somehow geographically
specific.

> There are probably about 3 zillion of these but a personal
> recommendation based on good success may be useful.

There are fewer than there used to be.  Many of the small shops are no
longer there.  They either went out of business or became big shops.  The
big shops have got fancy and uppity.  They now have representatives in North
America and elsewhere, and won't touch low volume jobs where "low" is a few
$100K.  The labor is still cheap, but the front end and overhead has gone up
so the overall price has gone up.

Unfortunately the front ends haven't fixed the cultural communications
problems in the cases I have seen.  Your contact may be someone that can
speak your language well, but all they do is pass it on and you get the same
old run around from China, except relayed thru a additional step.  They
still don't want to tell you bad news, and try to "get away with" any
problems to the extent they can.

For example, one of my customers is trying to get a small moderate volume
product into production at one of these large Chinese manufacturers.  I
created the electronics that connects directly to the pogo pins in the
tester, and wrote the low level test software that is run once for each
unit.  They were supposed to put a GUI above that to present whatever
interface would be comfortable to their operators and work with their
production flow.  They are also designing and building the physical tester
that will house my electronics and a few other things.  I gave them the
executable and detailed documentation on what status codes and other output
the low level test software produced, which was designed to be captured by a
parent program.

When several folks from the factory came out to visit the customer here in
Massachusetts a couple of months ago, one of the people was presented as the
engineer that would be designing the test fixture and creating the GUI
wrapper for the production test program.  His english was a little shaky,
but I felt good enough to communicate over email if I didn't use fancy
words.

Once they started digging into this job, they kept sending messages asking
the same questions over again, all of which were pretty directly answered in
the documentation I had sent.  Each time I answered, and also referred them
to the pathname of the documentation file.  From the level of questions, it
became apparent they didn't understand the process overall, and clearly
hadn't read the documentation we provided.

Then last week the engineer that was supposedly creating our test station
let slip the questions were from the "subcontractor".  It turns out this
engineer that had been presented as the one who would personally be doing
this project is merely relaying the subcontractor's questions and our
answers back and forth.  He is doing something else and doesn't seem to have
passed on the training he got in Massachusetts nor our documentation to the
subcontractor.  Then it dawned on us.  The subcontractor is probably
somebody's cousin or nephew and doesn't speak english.  He hasn't read the
documentation because he can't, and nobody wants to tell us this because
that would be loosing face.  The engineer at the manufacturer is busy with
something else and hasn't translated the documentation.  We don't know this
for sure, but it's a reasonable supposition that is consitant with other
dealing's I've had with chinese manufacturers.

They were also supposed to give us a mechanical drawing of the fixture they
were building so that we could approve it.  We had been asking for this
drawing, and the question was just ignored in all email reponses.  Then
Friday we got pictures of what looked like a completed fixture.
Unfortunately a key dimension was way too short, even though it was
definitely spelled out in our original spec.

The details will be different project to project, but this kind of
interaction is typical with chinese manufacturers, at least according to my
experience, and I've been thru this a few times.  They never want to tell
you something they think you don't want to hear, they only respond to the
questions they want to answer, and even then they assume (usually
incorrectly) they know why you are asking a particular question, and then
answer that in cryptic english that could be interpreted several different
ways.  They never give you a straight "yes" or "no", unless it's what they
think you want to hear and it happens to be the truth.

I'm not saying to can't get good value eventually out of a Chinese
manufacturer, but you have to understand there will be considerable
investment and time on your part to get there.  It doesn't make sense unless
you have a long term high volume product.

> Nice to have are
> commitment to quality, good communications, commercially
> realistic turnaround times.

Lol.  Of course they all have that, just ask them.

> Production outside mainland China (ROC or elsewhere) is
> conceivable but overall cost after all aspects are
> considered would need to be competitive.
>
> Any recommendations?

Talk to Djula at Data Tehnik in Novi Sad, .....djula021KILLspamspam@spam@sbb.co.yu.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\08\11@102559 by alan smith

picon face
I think that what Olin described...is much like a Dilbert cartoon.  Alot of us have seen it, or dealt with it, and understand that its not an isolated incident but fairly widespread.  I'll just say, as others have done as well, for lowish volumes (100-1000/mo) and simple complete SMD assemblies, you can do just as well stateside.  And depending on who you use, the stateside operations will often have the relationships in place to move it outside the US, if the volumes push high enough.  Hand labor rates have been cheaper outside the US, but even those are starting to erode as they move to eastern Europe.  Its all about the standard of living, as it goes up, wages go up, costs go up, etc.


     

2008\08\11@133411 by Ray Newman

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part 1 1812 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (decoded quoted-printable)

SMD is never done by small shops.
Through hole yes, but not SMD.

SMD takes most of the labor out so the labor cost is better than USA but not by much.

But material, other than ICs is less expensive than USA.

Minimum runs are 10k to 100k
Minimum value per run is also $100k or more.

Why do you think I use Thailand and Vietnam????
Minimum material purchase of any one part is 1,000 pcs (set by supplier)
Minimum value of production is $25,000 (parts and labor)
They only charge 13% to buy material for you.

And no matter how well you train the Chinese, they will forget.
They place more value on how it looks instead of how it works.

I found Thailand and Vietnam know what USA feels is most important.
And Thailand take pride in workmanship.
Thailand is easiest to work with but Vietnam is interesting.

Ray

On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 18:14:48 +1200, Apptech wrote:
{Quote hidden}


part 2 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(decoded 7bit)

2008\08\11@135013 by gardenyu

picon face
part 1 7118 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="gb2312" (decoded quoted-printable)

     Well, to some point, I agree with thie phenomenon you have seen in Chinese manufacturers, it made me a little loosing face, though. This is also why some US big companies, they would like to set up their own branches in China, train and get local people familiar with their process other than simply "wireless communicating" with them overseas.      There might be a lot reasons why they didn't make it as you supposed they should be, one is: Too low volume. When I was first in the business here in States and never made any layout before, my boss gave me a little hard job, simply because it's way too low volume (even called "strategic"). Fortunately, I still made it.
    One possible solution is that: some US companies build assemblies overseas, they usually charge more than you contact Chinese directly yourself, but it also saves you a lot trouble.


> From: olin_piclistspamKILLspamembedinc.com> To: .....piclistKILLspamspam.....mit.edu> Subject: Re: [EE]:: Chinese SMD assembler required> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 08:16:24 -0400> > Apptech wrote:> > I'm looking for a competent Chinese mainland based SMD> > assembler.> > I wouldn't start out specifying where your assembler needs to be unless> maybe the product itself and its distribution is somehow geographically> specific.> > > There are probably about 3 zillion of these but a personal> > recommendation based on good success may be useful.> > There are fewer than there used to be. Many of the small shops are no> longer there. They either went out of business or became big shops. The> big shops have got fancy and uppity. They now have representatives in North> America and elsewhere, and won't touch low volume jobs where "low" is a few> $100K. The labor is still cheap, but the front end and overhead has gone up> so the overall price has gone up.> > Unfortunately the front ends haven't fixed the cultural commu
nications> problems in the cases I have seen. Your contact may be someone that can> speak your language well, but all they do is pass it on and you get the same> old run around from China, except relayed thru a additional step. They> still don't want to tell you bad news, and try to "get away with" any> problems to the extent they can.> > For example, one of my customers is trying to get a small moderate volume> product into production at one of these large Chinese manufacturers. I> created the electronics that connects directly to the pogo pins in the> tester, and wrote the low level test software that is run once for each> unit. They were supposed to put a GUI above that to present whatever> interface would be comfortable to their operators and work with their> production flow. They are also designing and building the physical tester> that will house my electronics and a few other things. I gave them the> executable and detailed documentation on what status codes and other
 output> the low level test software produced, which was designed to be captured by a> parent program.> > When several folks from the factory came out to visit the customer here in> Massachusetts a couple of months ago, one of the people was presented as the> engineer that would be designing the test fixture and creating the GUI> wrapper for the production test program. His english was a little shaky,> but I felt good enough to communicate over email if I didn't use fancy> words.> > Once they started digging into this job, they kept sending messages asking> the same questions over again, all of which were pretty directly answered in> the documentation I had sent. Each time I answered, and also referred them> to the pathname of the documentation file. From the level of questions, it> became apparent they didn't understand the process overall, and clearly> hadn't read the documentation we provided.> > Then last week the engineer that was supposedly creating our test station> l
et slip the questions were from the "subcontractor". It turns out this> engineer that had been presented as the one who would personally be doing> this project is merely relaying the subcontractor's questions and our> answers back and forth. He is doing something else and doesn't seem to have> passed on the training he got in Massachusetts nor our documentation to the> subcontractor. Then it dawned on us. The subcontractor is probably> somebody's cousin or nephew and doesn't speak english. He hasn't read the> documentation because he can't, and nobody wants to tell us this because> that would be loosing face. The engineer at the manufacturer is busy with> something else and hasn't translated the documentation. We don't know this> for sure, but it's a reasonable supposition that is consitant with other> dealing's I've had with chinese manufacturers.> > They were also supposed to give us a mechanical drawing of the fixture they> were building so that we could approve it. We ha
d been asking for this> drawing, and the question was just ignored in all email reponses. Then> Friday we got pictures of what looked like a completed fixture.> Unfortunately a key dimension was way too short, even though it was> definitely spelled out in our original spec.> > The details will be different project to project, but this kind of> interaction is typical with chinese manufacturers, at least according to my> experience, and I've been thru this a few times. They never want to tell> you something they think you don't want to hear, they only respond to the> questions they want to answer, and even then they assume (usually> incorrectly) they know why you are asking a particular question, and then> answer that in cryptic english that could be interpreted several different> ways. They never give you a straight "yes" or "no", unless it's what they> think you want to hear and it happens to be the truth.> > I'm not saying to can't get good value eventually out of a Chinese
> manufacturer, but you have to understand there will be considerable> investment and time on your part to get there. It doesn't make sense unless> you have a long term high volume product.> > > Nice to have are> > commitment to quality, good communications, commercially> > realistic turnaround times.> > Lol. Of course they all have that, just ask them.> > > Production outside mainland China (ROC or elsewhere) is> > conceivable but overall cost after all aspects are> > considered would need to be competitive.> >> > Any recommendations?> > Talk to Djula at Data Tehnik in Novi Sad, EraseMEdjula021spam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTsbb.co.yu.> > > ********************************************************************> Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products> (978) 742-9014. Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.>

2008\08\11@135653 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
I no longer recommend anyone from mainland China. I like Mexico for US/Canada
customers. I've heard too many bizarre stories, especially having to
do with plastics
and molds.

--Bob A

On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 11:14 PM, Apptech <apptechspamspam_OUTparadise.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\08\11@171219 by Martin K

face
flavicon
face
I've gotten good quotes from Olin's contact in Serbia (Djula, Data Tehnik.)
I've not gotten anything yet as it's held up on my end, but I do expect
good results from them.

The communication barrier to China is very difficult to overcome. I was
successful in getting custom NiMH battery packs made from a contact on
Alibaba. I sent them a picture of a pack I wanted, the part number of
the molex connector, and voila I have battery packs for 40% the cost of
the state-side packs. The packs I purchased here are rated 1.4Ah, and I
specified 1Ah to the Chinese manufacturer. The ones I received direct
from China perform exactly to specification. The "1.4Ah" packs I got
from the US distributor (made in China no doubt anyway) have all tested
850mAh. So it's possible to get good quality, you just have to be
extremely literal (and lucky?)
-
Martin

alan smith wrote:
> I think that what Olin described...is much like a Dilbert cartoon.  Alot of us have seen it, or dealt with it, and understand that its not an isolated incident but fairly widespread.  I'll just say, as others have done as well, for lowish volumes (100-1000/mo) and simple complete SMD assemblies, you can do just as well stateside.  And depending on who you use, the stateside operations will often have the relationships in place to move it outside the US, if the volumes push high enough.  Hand labor rates have been cheaper outside the US, but even those are starting to erode as they move to eastern Europe.  Its all about the standard of living, as it goes up, wages go up, costs go up, etc.
>
>
>      
>  

2008\08\11@172238 by Ray Newman

picon
part 1 2355 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (decoded quoted-printable)

I had to go to mainland plastic injection house to solve a mold problem with
a IR transparent faceplate.

There was an optical wrinkle in the plastic that was affecting pickup right at the pin diode
location. But the Chinese kept saying it had no problem with mold.

So customer asked me to drop in and look myself.

Of course the mold was repaired and make perfect looking plastic to the naked eye.

In USA you could see a slight change in index of refraction.

But not in China.

So I had to show them with a webcam.

They had a gouge in the mold but repaired it but with slightly different metal.

Not sure why, but it did.

They had no clue and did not want to admit they did not know how to fix.

Sometime I hate "saving face"

If I get one bad assembly in one million it is a lot from Thailand.
Give them a kit of parts, drawings and sample, then I just walk away.

Sometimes I make a test fixture.

Ray


On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 10:56:46 -0700, Bob Axtell wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\08\11@212420 by Joseph Bento

face
flavicon
face
For the American readers on this list:

I can't help but just feel a tad bitter, but hear me out...

What happens (and it will eventually happen) when China, Viet Nam,  
Thailand, et al, approach a standard of living comparable to the USA  
or Europe? Who can we exploit next?  Perhaps Central Africa would be a  
good source of cheap labour?

I'm glad I don't have to make the decisions where a product is going  
to be manufactured.  My job is rather simple in that I get to hand  
assemble the engineering prototypes.  Rather than use a pick and place  
machine, I get to hand solder 0402 and 0603 components and then  
troubleshoot the design. Certainly not something that can be done for  
any production over a couple units.

I'm disturbed that there are so few new students in American  
universities taking engineering courses.  I'm disturbed that  
electronics isn't even an option at the majority of this country's  
high schools today.  Yet, it's just as well.  The jobs seem to be  
getting somewhat scarce as the domestic need diminishes.

By the sounds of some of the posts, offshore assembly hardly sounds  
like the bargain one might be after.    Even here in Salt Lake there  
are a hand full of board houses capable of large volume production.

Joe, N6DGY
Pleasant Grove, UT

2008\08\11@221723 by Jinx

face picon face
> What happens (and it will eventually happen) when China, Viet Nam,  
> Thailand, et al, approach a standard of living comparable to the USA  
> or Europe?

I saw a piece last night about the counterfeit knock-off trade in China

As the Chinese become more affluent they're losing interest in buying
locally made tat and prefer the genuine article. The people who still
actively look for phoney Prada and Louis Vuitton are visitors and tourists,
but government crackdowns and diminishing returns are driving the
businesses out or underground

One European women stunned me when she said she'd bought some
counterfeit clothing for her grandkids. She said it was rubbish quality
and wouldn't last long but it was cheap so she bought it anyway. Poor
grandkids eh ?

So the time is probably approaching when China will not be the cheap
source of labour it is now. Components possibly will continue because
of their huge scale, and it's estimated they will be the world's dominant
economy in 10 years time, so what will happen then ?

There are still plenty of poor countries in Central Asia and Africa that
would fill the gap. Somebody will always be last on a list

2008\08\11@224701 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Jinx wrote:

> One European women stunned me when she said she'd bought some
> counterfeit clothing for her grandkids. She said it was rubbish quality
> and wouldn't last long but it was cheap so she bought it anyway. Poor
> grandkids eh ?

Not necessarily. Buying expensive high-quality high-marketing brand
clothing that lasts many years for kids that outgrow it in a few months may
leave the kids "poorer" than buying inexpensive low-quality look-alikes
that last a few months and spend the difference on, say, an electronics
kit... :)

Gerhard

2008\08\11@225020 by Ray Newman

picon
part 1 3251 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (decoded quoted-printable)

Joe,
I agree, I just wish I could afford pick & place equipment myself.
I would design HA products with no labor needed. (very little)
Then I could do everything myself.
BUT
That is what my Thai assembler is doing himself.
Small company that is moving to less people as cost of living goes higher.

I keep saying to myself, if he could do it I should be able to.

Oh' well. But I have found it is still cheaper to do it there if you use a good deal of connectors.

Jacks of all types. I use to import and assemble in USA but found
the royalty for RJ-11 is $0.10 (to AT&T) if I buy USA and sometimes if I import.
Packaging of raw material (plastic tray, bubble, peanuts, cardboard) makes the product heavy and bulky.
Then higher import duty from developed countries.
Then individual shipments for EACH supplier.
This all almost kills any cost advantage of buying part from SE Asia and shipping to USA.

Found it cheaper to pay agents in each country to consolidate that countries shipment into
single shipment. Savings derived from one shipment more than pays his 5-7%.

The next step was ship each country's good to a common country.
Thailand. Low cost to ship due to shorter distance.
Get rid of all the packing material and assemble the boards.

I always paid more than slave wages. I get better quality and faster delivery.
Enough for Thai company to buy SMT equipment.

Now ship completed module at less space and weight to USA.
Some break on custom's duty.

Nothing like China or Mexico. Not as cheap. But everybody is happy.
Workers, owners, customer and me.

Still I should save up to buy my own SMT pick & place.
There has to be some surplus equipment for all the failed USA companies.
Wish I knew where to look.

Ray


On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 19:23:53 -0600, Joseph Bento wrote:
{Quote hidden}


part 2 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(decoded 7bit)

2008\08\11@234028 by Jinx

face picon face
> She said it was rubbish quality

> Buying expensive high-quality high-marketing brand clothing that lasts

I appreciate that, but why bother buying crap overseas when you could
have bought the same crap back home ?

And price is no indicator of quality of course, seen several durability
tests done on clothing that show a "label name" means next to nothing
in that respect

Just how much better is a $2000 handbag than a $40 one ? 50 times ?

Clothing is not comparable to electronics in many regards though

2008\08\12@043518 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 11:39 PM 8/11/2008, you wrote:
> > She said it was rubbish quality
>
> > Buying expensive high-quality high-marketing brand clothing that lasts
>
>I appreciate that, but why bother buying crap overseas when you could
>have bought the same crap back home ?
>
>And price is no indicator of quality of course, seen several durability
>tests done on clothing that show a "label name" means next to nothing
>in that respect
>
>Just how much better is a $2000 handbag than a $40 one ? 50 times ?
>
>Clothing is not comparable to electronics in many regards though

When my wife was working in Tianjin a decade ago or so (environmental
work on a car plant, paid for by our government as aid), she picked up some
fake North Face jackets in a Beijing market-- one for me and one for
our son. They both looked good. My one fell apart in short order (wrong
thread used for the material, I think), whereas the kid's jacket probably
lasted as long as a real one would have. Crap shoot.

I'm afraid that this is a bit like blind men describing an elephant..
with a country of 1.3bn people. Imagine if you tried to do business in
the US from half a world away, and demanded to communicate in, say,
German with German instructions and all your drawings were first-angle
projections. You wouldn't find the most competitive suppliers (an elephant is
like a wall), you might run into unscrupulous ones (an elephant is like
a snake) and you might get shipped garbage (an elephant is soft, warm
and squishy..)
well, you get the idea. One person finds minimum orders of 100K and another
has no problem sourcing quantity five of prototype 8-layer PCBs.

http://www.wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/1/?letter=B&spage=3

Rich city people in China are going to show off like rich people everywhere--
Y50 for a cake and coffee at Starbucks! That's more than home.. and too much
at home!.. but the average income is still very, very low there. Because
China has become the nexus of world manufacturing, it will maintain an
important position for a very long time, IMHO, just as Japan has long
after costs spiraled beyond that of Western countries.

>Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
KILLspamspeffKILLspamspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com



2008\08\12@073533 by Nicola Perotto

picon face
This is a good example of China:

   China bans child singer with crooked teeth from singing at opening
   ceremony

   http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/olympics/article4512250.ece


2008\08\12@081808 by Martin

face
flavicon
face
I think we would love to have everything made in the USA. The problem is
that nobody would buy it because it would cost at least 5 times the
foreign-assembled price.
-
Martin

Joseph Bento wrote:
> By the sounds of some of the posts, offshore assembly hardly sounds  
> like the bargain one might be after.    Even here in Salt Lake there  
> are a hand full of board houses capable of large volume production.
>
> Joe, N6DGY
> Pleasant Grove, UT
>
>  

2008\08\12@084201 by olin piclist

face picon face
Joseph Bento wrote:
> What happens (and it will eventually happen) when China, Viet Nam,
> Thailand, et al, approach a standard of living comparable to the USA
> or Europe?

Unskilled jobs will go to the lowest bidder.  If those jobs are not
geographically specific (if you need a floor swept in Boston it makes no
difference how much somebody wants for sweeping a floor in Mogadishu), then
that lowest bidder can be anywhere in the world.

> Who can we exploit next?  Perhaps Central Africa would be a
> good source of cheap labour?

I think that will be a emerging area eventually.  What you want is a place
where there were either repressive governments that kept the standard of
living low due to their antics, or places where people were recently beating
on each other, which also keeps the people hungry.  That's the kind of place
where you're a hero for giving someone $.50 and a bowl of rice a day to do
whatever menial task you want.  In some places it's even better since the
economy was held down but with a decent edjucation system in place.  Former
Soviet block turned democratic countries are good examples of this.

In most of Africa they aren't done beating on each other yet, so they're not
ready for the $.50 and bowls of rice.  That's good though, because we want
them to be ready just as the standard of living gets too high in Viet Nam
and the like.  That's probably 15 years off at least, which might be just
about right for parts of Africa to get their act together.

There are other places outside of Africa, like Mianmar, Cambodia, Laos,
North Korea, and Cuba where the depressing forces are still in place.  That
provides plenty of possible alternatives once Viet Nam and Thailand go the
way China is starting to go now.  Once the last Castro brother dies, there
will be a huge upheaval in Cuba, and for a few years it will be a good place
to get things manufactured.  I think it won't last very long though.  You
don't want to build plants there, just exploit the cheap labor then move on
quickly as the prices go up.

There will always be desperate people to do the unskilled jobs without
burdens like OSHA and the EPA as we have here.  The problem is that once
they get paid for those unskilled jobs and they have a government that has
some clue, the standard of living goes up and they aren't poor anymore and
then they start competing with you.  This is why R+D investment in the US is
so important.  We need to be a step ahead as new areas emerge.  While they
use their new wealth to create a new infrastructure from dirt paths and
oxcarts, we have to use the profits to create the next technologies and
industries of tomorrow that will give us a few years until they get moved to
cheaper places.

> Even here in Salt Lake there
> are a hand full of board houses capable of large volume production.

You are missing the point.  It's not the volume capability that's in
question, its the price of the product.  If I need something special done
right and done quickly, I'll use Advanced Circuits in Colorado.  I can't
imagine ever using them for production though.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\08\12@084905 by Funny NYPD

picon face
There must be balance points for different volume, e.g.
<500 pieces, assembly in house,
>500 but <30K, assembly by USA manufacturer.
>30K, outsource to oversea.
The smaller volume won't take the overhead of outsource as good as the large volume.

Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, New Bedford, MA, http://www.AuElectronics.com



{Original Message removed}

2008\08\12@085225 by Carl Denk

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Yea, and nobody in the USA (or Europe and other areas) can afford to buy
them or anything else. The way it works, is drive down the standard of
living, instead of bring up the poorer sections. Think of a few drops of
red food dye in a glass of water, it's all red without any stirring .

Martin wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\08\12@090412 by Apptech

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Summary: PLEASE take this particular subset of the thread to
OT if you must reply and preferably change the subject line.

If you must post other similar PLEASE use OT.

Please think carefully about posting similar.

That's a CAPITAL PLEASE in each case.

________________________________


This thread has wandered a bit but been reasonably relevant
both to original subject and tag.

HOWEVER - commentary on a country in a general sense with no
reference to electrical engineering is not relevant to this
tag. At very best it belongs in [OT].

AND without even having read the page mentioned, it is
likely that it is marginal for the list at all. ... Reads
... . Marginal. At best it belongs in OT and it will likely
cause some problems there. Yes, it's not ideal but hardly
inconsistent with much that  is done all over the world. Not
nice but also not [EE]. Whether it's [OT] depends on how
mature we all are.

Next please


                   Russell

____________________________


{Original Message removed}

2008\08\12@204254 by Sean Breheny

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Olin, your reply seems rather brutal. You refer to improving
conditions in other countries as "a problem" I suppose that in many
cases, sending that $0.50 to a poor person for work is in fact a good
thing (the invisible hand at work), but not if it in fact continues to
encourage the repression and lack of proper working standards.

Sean


On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 8:43 AM, Olin Lathrop <RemoveMEolin_piclistTakeThisOuTspamembedinc.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\08\12@212015 by Apptech

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> Olin, your reply seems rather brutal. You refer to
> improving
> conditions in other countries as "a problem" I suppose
> that in many
> cases, sending that $0.50 to a poor person for work is in
> fact a good
> thing (the invisible hand at work), but not if it in fact
> continues to
> encourage the repression and lack of proper working
> standards.

I thought Olin's response was 'interesting'.
If taken at face value that's what traditionally is labelled
"The ugly American" stance. But in this case it just
possibly could have been the 'cynically laid back' or
'intelligent troll' or tongue in cheek or sarcastic mode.
Occam's Razor (which is by no means certain to offer the
correct answer) says 'Ugly American' is to be preferred.

       http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugly_American

Wikipedia doesn't seem to have entries for most of the
others :-)
Maybe a shoe in in compensation.

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occams_razor

Is this still EE ?
Had to think about that.
Another jump or two ], and no.
At present it still relates (marginally) to international
cost of work, how we are seen and what it costs to get
things done.
US is a factor in all that. You can have eg UNZ or course
but it hasn't got the same buy in.



       Russell




2008\08\13@065703 by olin piclist

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Sean Breheny wrote:
> Olin, your reply seems rather brutal. You refer to improving
> conditions in other countries as "a problem" I suppose that in many
> cases, sending that $0.50 to a poor person for work is in fact a good
> thing (the invisible hand at work), but not if it in fact continues to
> encourage the repression and lack of proper working standards.

This has wandered into politics and doesn't belong on EE and possibly not
the PIClist.  I realize my post you are replying to doesn't belong here
either, but I didn't notice at the time since I replied to a direct
question.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\08\23@063222 by Vitaliy

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Apptech wrote:
>> Olin, your reply seems rather brutal. You refer to
>> improving
>> conditions in other countries as "a problem" I suppose
>> that in many
>> cases, sending that $0.50 to a poor person for work is in
>> fact a good
>> thing (the invisible hand at work), but not if it in fact
>> continues to
>> encourage the repression and lack of proper working
>> standards.
>
> I thought Olin's response was 'interesting'.
> If taken at face value that's what traditionally is labelled
> "The ugly American" stance. But in this case it just
> possibly could have been the 'cynically laid back' or
> 'intelligent troll' or tongue in cheek or sarcastic mode.
> Occam's Razor (which is by no means certain to offer the
> correct answer) says 'Ugly American' is to be preferred.

I don't think Olin can possibly be serious about everything he said.
Although it makes me wonder why he would willingly give ammunition to those
who oppose free trade (I know he himself supports it).


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