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'[OT] Can anyone confirm Raspberry Pi shipping ?'
2012\03\05@115923 by Tamas Rudnai

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I have read few articles about this device but still not very clear what
can you do with this? Only learning programming with some Logo style
language? Or can you browse the internet with it? Can you use/install SkyPe
and OpenOffice on it?

Thanks,
Tamas



On 5 March 2012 16:45, <spam_OUTalan.b.pearceTakeThisOuTspamstfc.ac.uk> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

2012\03\05@121145 by Wouter van Ooijen

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On 5/3/2012 5:59 PM, Tamas Rudnai wrote:
> I have read few articles about this device but still not very clear what
> can you do with this? Only learning programming with some Logo style
> language? Or can you browse the internet with it? Can you use/install SkyPe
> and OpenOffice on it?

It is basically a big ARM chip (with video hardware), RAM, some boot-flash, and a memory card. It runs Linux, but probably not on par (speedwise)  with your current desktop. AFAIK (and what interests me most) is that you can also use it bare-metal, as a low-cost processor board, using every language that can target ARM (uncluding all GCC variations).

--
Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu
C++ on uC blog: http://www.voti.nl/erblog

2012\03\05@134728 by Tamas Rudnai

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On 5 March 2012 17:11, Wouter van Ooijen <.....wouterKILLspamspam@spam@voti.nl> wrote:

> It is basically a big ARM chip (with video hardware), RAM, some
> boot-flash, and a memory card. It runs Linux, but probably not on par
> (speedwise)  with your current desktop. AFAIK (and what interests me
> most) is that you can also use it bare-metal, as a low-cost processor
> board, using every language that can target ARM (uncluding all GCC
> variations).
>

I see, I did not looked at it as a kind of demo board, but it is definitely
a good idea. Are you planning to use the hardware in your lectures once it
will be more easier available?

Tama

2012\03\05@140136 by mcd

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Wouter van Ooijen zei ...
> It is basically a big ARM chip (with video hardware), RAM, some

Well, actually, the ARM processor is a tiny part of the huge video chip.

> boot-flash, and a memory card. It runs Linux, but probably not on par
> (speedwise)  with your current desktop.

It isn't exactly a slouch, though.  Apparently with the fancy video chip
it is quite adept at playing video games.  Since the target is kids this
is an important feature.  At FUDcon they showed it playing Quake quite
acceptably.  You probably wouldn't take a handful of them and call it a
server farm, tho.

It is my understanding that it will ship with Fedora, so the normal gcc
toolchain will be readily available. Fedora expects to make ARM a primary
architecture by Fedora 18, so all >10,000 packages will be available
hassle-free.  The ARM effort is close now, so almost all the packages are
available.  They just didn't make it under the wire for Fedora 17, whose
Alpha shipped Tuesday.

--McD

2012\03\05@140500 by John Ferrell

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It seems to me that after you have the working prototype that it should not take long to build. PC boards, parts, assemble, Test (maybe?)
Not knowing instruction set, architecture, available software or intended additional documentation I think I ordered one with RS but I did not get anything in the way of a confirmation. Bare metal is fine with me if there is enough information about the interfacing details. If it takes a year to sort it out I can accept that. In fact, the Project has such good intentions that if I just plain lose $50, I will be more concerned about the folks trying to put this together.

The price is like an Arduino with a lot more promise!

On 3/5/2012 12:11 PM, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
{Quote hidden}

-- John Ferrell W8CCW
Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example.
Mark Twain (1835 - 1910), Pudd'nhead Wilson (1894)

2012\03\05@143520 by jim

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I admit that I am a little naive on the Raspberry Pi.
What is it?  and what is all the excitement about?

Regards,

Jim

> ---{Original Message removed}

2012\03\05@150848 by Tamas Rudnai

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Wouter just wrote that down -- basically a computer sized of a credit card
-- no fancy boxing, looks like a demo board, but you can attach your TV as
a screen and your existing keyboard and mouse to it and you get a Linux
based computer. All for 25 pounds (without the TV and the keyboard and the
mobile phone charger which powers it)!

Tamas



On 5 March 2012 19:35, <jimspamKILLspamjpes.com> wrote:

>
>  I admit that I am a little naive on the Raspberry Pi.
>  What is it?  and what is all the excitement about?
>
>  Regards,
>
>  Jim
>
> > ---{Original Message removed}

2012\03\05@152532 by Alex Harford

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On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 11:04 AM, John Ferrell <.....jferrell13KILLspamspam.....triad.rr.com> wrote:
> In fact, the Project
> has such good intentions that if I just plain lose $50, I will be more
> concerned about the folks trying to put this together.
>
> The price is like an Arduino with a lot more promise!

One person at Olimex does not think it is so promising:

http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4748&PN=

2012\03\05@160850 by Chris McSweeny

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We're seriously considering trying one as a thin client in our local
school - our current system already uses VMs running on Fedora, so it
seems it should be possible to just drop one of these in. The main
requirement for a thin client like this is ability to handle the video
processing, and it seems these should be pretty capable for that - the
original idea was just a bit of a joke to see if it was possible, but
the more I think about it, the more sense it makes, given that a brand
new one of these is significantly cheaper than the s/h PCs we
currently use.

Chris

On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 4:59 PM, Tamas Rudnai <EraseMEtamas.rudnaispam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:
> I have read few articles about this device but still not very clear what
> can you do with this? Only learning programming with some Logo style
> language? Or can you browse the internet with it? Can you use/install SkyPe
> and OpenOffice on it?
>
> Thanks,
> Tama

2012\03\05@163636 by Chris McSweeny

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On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 8:25 PM, Alex Harford <harfordspamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 11:04 AM, John Ferrell <@spam@jferrell13KILLspamspamtriad.rr.com> wrote:
>> In fact, the Project
>> has such good intentions that if I just plain lose $50, I will be more
>> concerned about the folks trying to put this together.
>>
>> The price is like an Arduino with a lot more promise!
>
> One person at Olimex does not think it is so promising:
>
> http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4748&PN=1

Well they would say that wouldn't they!

A lot of the gripe appears to be regarding the ability to deliver at
that price - when as pointed out, the two largest electronics
distributors in the UK are happily taking orders at that price (and
the "handling charge" comment is spurious - nothing like that appeared
in my basket on Farnell).

Chri

2012\03\05@165740 by Peter Loron

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It does look like performance is pretty decent, even for non-video tasks. The drivers for handing off rendering to the special accelerator part of the CPU are coming along as well. Last I heard there were still some parts of X that weren't accelerated yet (window moves?). Anyway, I'm sure those will get implemented and polished pretty quickly.

I think on a watt-per-performance basis (as far as machines capable of running a full Linux distro) this is doing pretty damn good.

IIRC there are Debian-based distros that are also pretty close to baked for ARM.

Should be a very interesting year for embedded/small Linux!

Mine should ship in early May.  :-)

-Pete
On Mar 5, 2012, at 11:15 AM, KILLspammcdKILLspamspamis-sixsigma.com wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2012\03\05@180218 by Byron Jeff

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On Mon, Mar 05, 2012 at 12:35:13PM -0700, RemoveMEjimTakeThisOuTspamjpes.com wrote:
>
>  I admit that I am a little naive on the Raspberry Pi.
>  What is it?

Sub 50$ USD computer. ARM processer with 256MB of RAM.

>  and what is all the excitement about?

Full HDMI video
Open platform
Runs Linux
Full speed USB
Fits in the palm of your hand

It's the next generation of plug computer and like all computing technology
it gets smaller, faster, better, and cheaper each generation.

The applications are endless. Print servers that you stick to the back of
printer. Media servers or clients for every TV in the house. Wireless
Monitoring/automation. Car computers that can plug into the electrical
jack of the car... Endless.

The Foundation is looking to get development computers back into the hands
of kids again to noodle and develop. But by partnering with big box
electronics distributors, we'll all get an opportunity to benefit while
contributing to the primary goal as the foundation gets a slice of every
sale.

BAJ


>
>  Regards,
>
>  Jim
>
> > ---{Original Message removed}

2012\03\05@181548 by Alex Harford

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On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 3:02 PM, Byron Jeff <spamBeGonebyronjeffspamBeGonespammail.clayton.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 05, 2012 at 12:35:13PM -0700, TakeThisOuTjimEraseMEspamspam_OUTjpes.com wrote:
>>
>>  I admit that I am a little naive on the Raspberry Pi.
>>  What is it?
>
> Sub 50$ USD computer. ARM processer with 256MB of RAM.
>
>>  and what is all the excitement about?
>
> Full HDMI video
> Open platform

Kinda sorta. You still need a binary blob for the video acceleration
and if the codec isn't supported you're out of luck.

But still a fantastic project and I'd love to get one.

2012\03\05@192903 by smplx

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On Mon, 5 Mar 2012, Byron Jeff wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Ok, so how many MIPS we talking about here? I've seen 700MHz mentioned but some time ago I seem to remember reading there was trouble getting instructions out of memory fast enough to feed a 60MHz ARM. Does the 700MHz translate to ARM MIPS or is it more to do with the video DAC?

I must admit I'm a bit curious as to why Broadcom hasn't made data sheets readily available. I've heard the story about how they don't want to bother with small customers but that doesn't feel right. I mean, if you (as a manufacturer) are looking for any kind of customer you want engineers to know how wonderful your chips are and come knocking on your door. You don't really want to make it hard for them to evaluate your product AND you REALLY don't want to make them jump through hoops like signing NDAs before they've tied themselves in. The one thing that keeping data sheets obscure does give you though is it does keep errata out of the public eye. Maybe I'm just cynical.

And another thing - why do we keep hearing $35 and 35 as if the two currencys are interchangable?

Regards
Sergio Masci

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(decoded base64)

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2012\03\05@195557 by John Gardner

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....You don't really want to make it hard for them to evaluate your
product AND you REALLY don't want to make them jump through hoops like
signing NDAs...

Sure they do - It's a matter of record. They're in the litigation business,
not the engineering business, say the unkind.

Track record says open-source & Broadcom is an odd couple, but
maybe they're looking to evolve.

I'd really like Raspberry Pi to work out. We'll see.

Jac

2012\03\06@074016 by Brendan Gillatt

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On 6 March 2012 00:27, smplx <smplxEraseMEspam.....allotrope.net> wrote:
> Ok, so how many MIPS we talking about here?

Have a look at http://elinux.org/RPi_Performance for some performance metrics.

> I've seen 700MHz mentioned

MIPS != Clock speed.

> but some time ago I seem to remember reading there was trouble getting
> instructions out of memory fast enough to feed a 60MHz ARM. Does the 700MHz
> translate to ARM MIPS or is it more to do with the video DAC?

I think you're getting a bit confused here. 60MHz is about the maximum
access rate for the flash memory typically used in microcontroller
style ARM chips. Since most microcontroller ARM chips--though not
all--don't have fast caches, this more or less limits the clock
frequency to about 60MHz. Some chips (the STM32 line comes to mind)
will grab multiple instructions from flash in one cycle by using
massively wide buses to break that limit.

The Broadcom behemoth on the R-Pi will have a nice big chunk of fast,
SRAM cache from which it pulls its instructions from, avoiding the
bottle-neck when accessing non-volatile memory.

The video DAC will run at a completely different rate, determined by
the composite video format used (NTSC, PAL, etc).

> I must admit I'm a bit curious as to why Broadcom hasn't made data sheets
> readily available. I've heard the story about how they don't want to bother
> with small customers but that doesn't feel right. I mean, if you (as a
> manufacturer) are looking for any kind of customer you want engineers to
> know how wonderful your chips are and come knocking on your door.

The companies with the sortof buying power that will keep Broadcom
interested will probably already know
about the chips (sales calls, newsletters, etc).

> You don't
> really want to make it hard for them to evaluate your product AND you REALLY
> don't want to make them jump through hoops like signing NDAs before they've
> tied themselves in. The one thing that keeping data sheets obscure does give
> you though is it does keep errata out of the public eye. Maybe I'm just
> cynical.
>


-- Brendan Gillatt
http://www.brendangillatt.co.u

2012\03\06@080942 by Mike Harrison

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On Tue, 6 Mar 2012 12:40:15 +0000, you wrote:

>On 6 March 2012 00:27, smplx <EraseMEsmplxspamallotrope.net> wrote:
>> Ok, so how many MIPS we talking about here?
>
>Have a look at http://elinux.org/RPi_Performance for some performance metrics.
>
>> I've seen 700MHz mentioned
>
>MIPS != Clock speed.

Actually on ARM it's pretty close

{Quote hidden}

The new NXP LPC18xx  devices use large RAM and booting from external SPI flash to get 180MHz.
>The Broadcom behemoth on the R-Pi will have a nice big chunk of fast,
>SRAM cache from which it pulls its instructions from, avoiding the
>bottle-neck when accessing non-volatile memory.

I think the Braodcom chip only has a minimal bootloader in on-chip memory - everything else runs in
RAM (DDR3?) , on a chip mounted on the CPU package

>> I must admit I'm a bit curious as to why Broadcom hasn't made data sheets
>> readily available. I've heard the story about how they don't want to bother
>> with small customers but that doesn't feel right. I mean, if you (as a
>> manufacturer) are looking for any kind of customer you want engineers to
>> know how wonderful your chips are and come knocking on your door.

They have released data on the ARM IO peripherals - the GPU is supported via a binary blob driver

2012\03\06@082210 by Mark Hanchey

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On 3/5/2012 2:35 PM, RemoveMEjimEraseMEspamEraseMEjpes.com wrote:
>   I admit that I am a little naive on the Raspberry Pi.
>   What is it?  and what is all the excitement about?
>
>   Regards,
>
>   Jim

If you want to see the potential of the Raspberry Pi all you have to do is look at the Roku X product, it uses the same chip and provides video streaming, wifi, bluetooth and has enough processor power to play games like angry birds.

We don't get the wifi or bluetooth but for $25 that is still a lot of processing ability.
Mark

2012\03\06@093655 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> I see, I did not looked at it as a kind of demo board, but it is definitely
> a good idea. Are you planning to use the hardware in your lectures once it
> will be more easier available?

If it gets reliably available we might make it mandatory for the students to buy one. It could be used from bare metal programming in assembler up to scripting robot arm movements in Python using ROS (a Linux-based robotics OS).

--
Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu
C++ on uC blog: http://www.voti.nl/erblog

2012\03\06@094047 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>> It is basically a big ARM chip (with video hardware), RAM, some
>
> Well, actually, the ARM processor is a tiny part of the huge video chip.

That's another way to see it. I am mainly interested in bare-metal programming (without Linux), and I understand that the documentation for the video will not be available soon, so it is (at the moment) out of my field of interest.

>> boot-flash, and a memory card. It runs Linux, but probably not on par
>> (speedwise)  with your current desktop.
>
> It isn't exactly a slouch, though.

IIRC it is a 300MHz ARM? The initial Jal for Linux was done on a 33 MHz 486. I guess it will be acceptable for all but the most demanding stuff.

--
Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu
C++ on uC blog: http://www.voti.nl/erblog

2012\03\06@094429 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>> The price is like an Arduino with a lot more promise!
>
> One person at Olimex does not think it is so promising:
> http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4748&PN=1

What he says is that he does not believe the price to be realistic. The big IF is whether the Pi will be reliably available in the future for the current price. If it is, the Olimex argument is disproven.

--
Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu
C++ on uC blog: http://www.voti.nl/erblog

2012\03\06@095003 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> I must admit I'm a bit curious as to why Broadcom hasn't made data
> sheets readily available.

I have the datasheet for the BCM2835 peripherals (ARM/graphics chip, but the GPU is *not* part of this document). That's all I need for bare-metal embedded work.

> And another thing - why do we keep hearing $35 and £35 as if the two
> currencys are interchangable?

Add E 35 to the mix. But any price below E50/GBP50/USD50 makes me drool.

--
Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu
C++ on uC blog: http://www.voti.nl/erblog

2012\03\06@125658 by jana1972

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Yes, It seems to me Olimex is realistic.
Most of all saying "it all seems now to look like cheap advertising for Broadcom for their processor."

I do not think that  publishing BCM2835 ARM Peripherals datasheet will be enough for the deveopers to make programs for Raspberry.
Broadcom is known as a company( at least for me) that does not care about small companies or individual programmers.
While ATMEL does. So Arduino is much better, at least in that openess.

But I would not want anyone to think I do not wish success to Raspberry. ( Bible, Luke 6:38)

Anyway my question is:
If they really wanted to help others by developing cheap computer, why they did not choose a really open solution( like ATMEL or similar)?




{Quote hidden}

> -

2012\03\06@132649 by Bob Ammerman

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> Anyway my question is:
> If they really wanted to help others by developing cheap computer, why
> they did not choose a really open solution( like ATMEL or similar)?
>
What ATMEL solution comes even close to the Broadcom for running Linux? Including HDMI output, etc. etc.

FWIW: My take on this is that it is an excellent idea. I'd like to see the Broadcom stuff open-sourced, but a binary blob is better than the alternative with other platforms, even if it probably restricts you to using Linux rather than bare iron.

-- Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

2012\03\06@133127 by smplx

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On Tue, 6 Mar 2012, Brendan Gillatt wrote:

> On 6 March 2012 00:27, smplx <RemoveMEsmplxspam_OUTspamKILLspamallotrope.net> wrote:
>> Ok, so how many MIPS we talking about here?
>
> Have a look at http://elinux.org/RPi_Performance for some performance metrics.
>
>> I've seen 700MHz mentioned
>
> MIPS != Clock speed.

Wow, what a surprise!

I remembered this differently so I just had to go take a look. Seems you're right. I thought this RISC processor executed 1 instruction per CPU cycle (maybe 2 cycles depending on memory access). Turns out it can take several cycles depending on the specific instruction.

That'll teach me to belive the hype I read :-)

Regards
Sergio Masc

2012\03\06@133230 by peter green

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jana1972@centrum.cz wrote:
> I do not think that  publishing BCM2835 ARM Peripherals datasheet will be
> enough for the deveopers to make programs for Raspberry.
>   The thing runs linux so you don't really need to get down and dirty with the hardware if
you don't want to.

> Broadcom is known as a company( at least for me) that does not care
> about small companies or individual programmers.
> While ATMEL does. So Arduino is much better, at least in that openess.
>   The ardunio is a completely different product from the Pi,  About the only thing
the two have in common is that they both have a huge ammount of hype surrounding
them
> Anyway my question is:
> If they really wanted to help others by developing cheap computer, why
> they did not choose a really open solution( like ATMEL or similar)?
>   The did consider a microcontroller based option but decided that for thier target
application a "mobile phone SOC" would be a better fit than a microcontroller.
Unfortunately none of the mobile phone SOCs are very open. Some
manufacturers release arm side documentation more freely than others but
afaict none of them release details of the GPU.

Afaict a broadcom part was chosen because they had people on the
inside who could negotiate a good deal for relatively small volumes

2012\03\06@134044 by Bob Ammerman

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Ammerman" <RemoveMEpicramTakeThisOuTspamspamroadrunner.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <EraseMEpiclistspamspamspamBeGonemit.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Can anyone confirm Raspberry Pi shipping ?


{Quote hidden}

*this == Raspberry PI

2012\03\06@150740 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> I remembered this differently so I just had to go take a look. Seems
> you're right. I thought this RISC processor executed 1 instruction per CPU
> cycle (maybe 2 cycles depending on memory access). Turns out it can take
> several cycles depending on the specific instruction.

Be careful: a pipelined processor (which the ARM9 is) will take several clock cycles to complete an instruction (from staring the instruction to completing it), but can (at full speed) complete one instruction each clock cycle! (because each stage of the pipeline can be working on a different instruction)

--
Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu
C++ on uC blog: http://www.voti.nl/erblog

2012\03\06@155146 by Chris McSweeny

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On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 12:27 AM, smplx <RemoveMEsmplxKILLspamspamallotrope.net> wrote:
> And another thing - why do we keep hearing $35 and £35 as if the two
> currencys are interchangable?

Because people are easily confused, consumer electronics available for
a given number of $ often does translate to the same number of £s by
the time it reaches the UK, but mainly because it's a UK product but
priced in $ so people get easily confused. Certainly I've not seen
anything official mentioning £35 and the price I'm seeing quoted is
£21.60

Chris

2012\03\06@160927 by Chris McSweeny

picon face
On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 5:56 PM,  <jana1972STOPspamspamspam_OUTcentrum.cz> wrote:
> Broadcom is known as a company( at least for me) that does not care
> about small companies or individual programmers.
> While ATMEL does. So Arduino is much better, at least in that openess.

You're talking apples and oranges. Arduino doesn't have anything like
the capability of RP (and in a similar sense, RP doesn't have some of
the capabilities of Arduino). If you have a current project which
works well on Arduino, it's unlikely porting to RP will gain you
anything, but then there's no way you can use Arduino to do lots of
things RP can.

> Anyway my question is:
> If they really wanted to help others by developing cheap computer, why
> they did not choose a really open solution( like ATMEL or similar)?

What other platforms have similar capability? Do ATMEL make anything
which could be used to make something like RP (ie including the built
in GPU)? Genuine question, as I'm not really all that up on the
capabilities of different chip families at that level.

Of course, like a lot of people you're missing the point that this
isn't a cheap computer for hobbyists (who might otherwise use a
microcontroller, arduino etc.), it's aimed to get kids into coding,
and for that purpose it doesn't need to be a really open solution -
the public availability is just a spin off. I understand one of the
people behind the project also works with Broadcom processors in his
day job - personally if I was designing something like this, I'd be
inclined to use a platform I was really familiar with.

Chri

2012\03\06@182512 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco

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Atmel produces several ARM926 CPUs, notably the SAM9G45, SAM9G46,
SAM9M10 and SAM9M11.

All of them run up to 400MHz, support large amounts of SDRAM or
DDR2-SDRAM, have two host and one device Hi-speed USB 2.0 ports, besides
2 SPI, 5 UART, 10/100 Ethernet, 2 SD/MMC, graphic LCD output, CMOS
camera interface, 10-bit ADC, PWM and a lot more.

The SAM9M10 and SAM9M11 also have video decoder.

Freescale also have nice powerful CPUs.


Isaac



Em 6/3/2012 18:09, Chris McSweeny escreveu:
{Quote hidden}

> Chris

2012\03\06@205517 by RussellMc

face picon face
> Atmel produces several ARM926 CPUs, notably the SAM9G45, SAM9G46,
> SAM9M10 and SAM9M11.

With the cheapest being about $12/1 at Digikey or about 1/3 of the
cost of the RP.

Does anyone offer a means of providing 1080p video capability that is
easily (enough) integrated and reasonably documented, that could be
used to give similar video capabilities to that of the RP at a price
that would allow equal or cheaper than RP devices to be  built ? This
does not mean that such a system could compete with an RP functionally
as there are many other factors, but reasonable video in an accessible
and well costed device seems to be a major lack.


2012\03\06@211131 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco

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Em 6/3/2012 22:54, RussellMc escreveu:
>> Atmel produces several ARM926 CPUs, notably the SAM9G45, SAM9G46,
>> SAM9M10 and SAM9M11.
> With the cheapest being about $12/1 at Digikey or about 1/3 of the
> cost of the RP.
>
> Does anyone offer a means of providing 1080p video capability that is
> easily (enough) integrated and reasonably documented, that could be
> used to give similar video capabilities to that of the RP at a price
> that would allow equal or cheaper than RP devices to be  built ? This
> does not mean that such a system could compete with an RP functionally
> as there are many other factors, but reasonable video in an accessible
> and well costed device seems to be a major lack.


But certainly the Broadcom chip is more expensive in small quantities
than it is in very large (10s of thousands) quantities.


Isaac

2012\03\06@230049 by Tamas Rudnai

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On 7 March 2012 02:11, Isaac Marino Bavaresco
<KILLspamisaacbavarescospamBeGonespamyahoo.com.br>wrote:

> But certainly the Broadcom chip is more expensive in small quantities
> than it is in very large (10s of thousands) quantities.
>

Although we can say this to every components, can't we?

Tama

2012\03\07@043929 by Brendan Gillatt

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On 6 March 2012 13:09, Mike Harrison <EraseMEmikespamEraseMEwhitewing.co.uk> wrote:
>>MIPS != Clock speed.
>
> Actually on ARM it's pretty close

I disagree. While I hate quoting Wikipedia, it handily lists various
typical MIPS/MHz figures for ARM cores:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ARM_microprocessor_cores. The
various cores have very differing MIPS/MHz and even a casual glance at
the instruction set datasheet will tell you that some instructions
take longer to execute than others on the same core.

Further, large caches imply large delays when a cache miss occurs. The
amount of misses the cache stumbles over depends on the code being
executed.

So, depending on the task at hand the MIPS/MHz figure will certainly
move around.

{Quote hidden}

I'm not familiar with the LPC18xx series but that sounds interesting.
The STM32F4 line uses a fairly simple and modest sized cache called an
ART to improve speed to around those levels.

>>The Broadcom behemoth on the R-Pi will have a nice big chunk of fast,
>>SRAM cache from which it pulls its instructions from, avoiding the
>>bottle-neck when accessing non-volatile memory.
>
> I think the Braodcom chip only has a minimal bootloader in on-chip memory - everything else runs in
> RAM (DDR3?) , on a chip mounted on the CPU package

But the core itself will not be issued instructions from external
DRAM. The latency would probably (I have no solid figures here) limit
the core to less than 100MHz. The core will get its instructions from
an on-die SRAM cache
(http://www.arm.com/products/processors/classic/arm11/ indicates a
size of between 4K and 64K). Ultimately those instructions will come
from non-volatile storage (whether that's the bootloader, from an SD
card, over the net, etc).

-- Brendan Gillatt
http://www.brendangillatt.co.uk

2012\03\07@044718 by alan.b.pearce

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> Atmel produces several ARM926 CPUs, notably the SAM9G45, SAM9G46,
> SAM9M10 and SAM9M11.
>
> All of them run up to 400MHz, support large amounts of SDRAM or DDR2-SDRAM, have two
> host and one device Hi-speed USB 2.0 ports, besides
> 2 SPI, 5 UART, 10/100 Ethernet, 2 SD/MMC, graphic LCD output, CMOS camera interface,
> 10-bit ADC, PWM and a lot more.
>
> The SAM9M10 and SAM9M11 also have video decoder.
>
> Freescale also have nice powerful CPUs.

I don't see anything mentioned there that will drive HDMI, which seems to be a requirement of the Raspberry Pi, so it can use any local TV or monitor as a display device. The nearest you have there is graphic LCD output, which is fine if you are including a display with the device (assuming it can drive a large enough display), but having a built in display would vastly increase the unit cost.
-- Scanned by iCritical.

2012\03\07@045405 by alan.b.pearce

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> > The new NXP LPC18xx  devices use large RAM and booting from external SPI flash to
> get 180MHz.
>
> I'm not familiar with the LPC18xx series but that sounds interesting.
> The STM32F4 line uses a fairly simple and modest sized cache called an ART to
> improve speed to around those levels.
>
> >>The Broadcom behemoth on the R-Pi will have a nice big chunk of fast,
> >>SRAM cache from which it pulls its instructions from, avoiding the
> >>bottle-neck when accessing non-volatile memory.

Note that the RP will be essentially running from RAM once it has booted, as the only bulk non-volatile storage is an SD card, and you wouldn't want to be running such a device on a 4 bit wide ROM bus ...


-- Scanned by iCritical.

2012\03\07@140159 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco

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Em 7/3/2012 06:47, @spam@alan.b.pearce@spam@spamspam_OUTstfc.ac.uk escreveu:
>> Atmel produces several ARM926 CPUs, notably the SAM9G45, SAM9G46,
>> SAM9M10 and SAM9M11.
>>
>> All of them run up to 400MHz, support large amounts of SDRAM or DDR2-SDRAM, have two
>> host and one device Hi-speed USB 2.0 ports, besides
>> 2 SPI, 5 UART, 10/100 Ethernet, 2 SD/MMC, graphic LCD output, CMOS camera interface,
>> 10-bit ADC, PWM and a lot more.
>>
>> The SAM9M10 and SAM9M11 also have video decoder.
>>
>> Freescale also have nice powerful CPUs.
> I don't see anything mentioned there that will drive HDMI, which seems to be a requirement of the Raspberry Pi, so it can use any local TV or monitor as a display device. The nearest you have there is graphic LCD output, which is fine if you are including a display with the device (assuming it can drive a large enough display), but having a built in display would vastly increase the unit cost.

Just received in a message from Freescale:
<http://www.freescale.com/webapp/site_cons.newsletter_metrics.framework?newsletter_id=NL092012&type=CLICKTHROUGH&url=http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/overview.jsp?code=IMX6X_SERIES%26tid=NL_0912>


These devices seem nice:

"The i.MX 6Quad family encompasses a quadcore platform running up to
1.2GHz with 1MB of L2 cache, and 64-bit DDR3 or 2-channel, 32-bit LPDDR2
support. High performance integration of LVDS, MIPI display port, MIPI
camera port and HDMI v1.4 makes it an ideal platform for consumer,
automotive and industrial multimedia applications."


Isaac

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