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'[OT] International paper madness'
2005\03\01@235734 by Russell McMahon

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Forestry is a major NZ industry.
We have paper mills but export a large proportion of our logs "raw".

Just bought 5 ream of 80 gsm photocopier paper.
Cheapest version - substantially cheaper than some was UPM Kymmene.
Seemed good to me. Looks OK.

Made where I wondered.
Googles ...

Finland!
All things considered, that's bizarre



       RM

2005\03\02@000416 by Dave VanHorn

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At 11:57 PM 3/1/2005, Russell McMahon wrote:
>Forestry is a major NZ industry.
>We have paper mills but export a large proportion of our logs "raw".

All the sugar in Hawaii is imported from the US mainland...


2005\03\02@001643 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 05:57 PM 3/2/2005 +1300, you wrote:
>Forestry is a major NZ industry.
>We have paper mills but export a large proportion of our logs "raw".
>
>Just bought 5 ream of 80 gsm photocopier paper.
>Cheapest version - substantially cheaper than some was UPM Kymmene. Seemed
>good to me. Looks OK.
>
>Made where I wondered.
>Googles ...
>
>Finland!
>All things considered, that's bizarre

Yes, the inexpensive letter size 20lb (75gm/m^2) 94 brilliance printer paper
I buy here in Canada (from a US big-box club retailer) is made in Sweden.
It is a bit bizarre. There are a lot of trees here, and the forestry
industry is huge. Maybe they're making higher end stuff.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
spam_OUTspeffTakeThisOuTspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com




2005\03\02@092810 by Howard Winter

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Russell,

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 17:57:30 +1300, Russell McMahon wrote:

> Forestry is a major NZ industry.
> We have paper mills but export a large proportion of our logs "raw".

That's pretty daft - "wet" logs weigh a vast amount more than if they are turned into dry pulp.  Several times
more, so unless you're not worried about weight, it must cost a lot more in shipping.  Unless they're charged
by volume?

> Just bought 5 ream of 80 gsm photocopier paper.
> Cheapest version - substantially cheaper than some was UPM Kymmene.

Hey, they were a client at one time - I did a project in their London office.  At the time they were the
largest corporation in Finland.  I imagine Nokia have overtaken them...

> Seemed good to me. Looks OK.
>
> Made where I wondered.
> Googles ...
>
> Finland!
> All things considered, that's bizarre

Well it seems to me that these days most things are made on the far side of the planet from their consumers -
most home electronic equipment, even from the big names, appears to have been made in China.  How much does it
cost to ship a video recorder?

Kymmene are a wood-products company.  Finland is almost all forest, and they turn the trees into everything
from buildings to bog-rolls, so they have the process really well set up.  I imagine the good logs end up as
structural timber, the dodgy ones as pulp for papermaking - with the bark as a gardening material, and vry
little waste.  The trouble for New Zealand is the small local market, so it may not be worth running paper
mills there.  I worked for a paper making firm once, and when I joined they had six paper macines (each as big
as a decent-sized ship!).  As competition hotted up, the prices fell and it made the machines uneconomic.  
Over about five years all but one paper machine was decommissioned (they sold them to China!).  And this was a
firm whose founder had developed the paper machine in the first place!

Times, they certainly are a-changing!  :-)

Cheers,




Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\02@134350 by James Newtons Massmind

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And now for something COMPLETELY different:

At the risk of sounding like some tree-hugging eco fanatic, I'll ask: What
is all that shipping doing to our planet?

I've got a big thing for buying local and "growing your own" where possible.
I don't buy eggs anymore. If not for my wife and kids, I wouldn't buy
chicken and I would eat a lot more rabbit. A lot of the veggies eaten in my
house come from our garden. The house is heated by a wood stove burning wood
cut from local land. The PV system goes in next week (they keep promising).
So, yes, I guess I am an eco fanatic... <GRIN>

http://www.pathtofreedom.com Grows almost ALL food on his 1/5 acre suburban
lot. With food, there are other reasons to stay local above and beyond just
the cost of transport. (Note to Russell, this guy loves NZ, used to live
there, wants to move back)

Now, I am not crazy enough to say that we should all be making our own
paper, but of all the people in the world, the people on this list are
probably best qualified to do so. Or to do this sort of thing. AND we know
how to do this sort of thing in an automated way, thereby making it less of
a full time job.
http://wi.essortment.com/paperhowismad_rrfn.htm

If Speff or Russell decided that they needed to make their own laser quality
paper from local trees, they could do it. And probably make a machine that
would allow anyone to make their own paper. It isn't worth it, financially,
of course. I'm not suggesting it. I'm just saying, we don't HAVE to ship our
paper in from another country or even from a local mill.

What I am suggesting is that we remember this: If (when?) the cost of
transportation rises to the point that import/export is no longer effective,
we are the people who can "pick up the slack" and supply the local market.
Hobby CNC is an explosive growth market right now. People are going to start
to expect to be able to make things in their own home.
http://www.buildyouridea.com/cnc.html look at where he got the castings.

Another nutty point: We each have a stock of parts. Lots of those parts are
just sitting there. If our local inventory where up to date and known to a
central web server, people near you, who needed that part in a hurry could
potentially buy it (for more than you paid for it, but less than it would
cost with overnight shipping) and it could be re-ordered automatically to
replenish your stock. Not worth your time? Yes, I understand that. But what
if your inventory were ALL on tape reel and you had a little 'bot that could
dispense and put out the parts in a lockbox on your porch that only the
buyer could open? Just trying to think about tomorrow, today.
http://www.freecycle.com

Amazon.com is starting to do this. You find your item online, with TONS of
information, reviews, etc... And then you purchase it and pick it up at a
local Office Depot or whatever. Someday, Barns and Nobel or one of the other
big book chains is going to get smart and make that happen. Or they are
going to fail and get purchased by Amazon. The internet locates it for you,
but you should have the option of physically getting it locally right f'ing
NOW. Bicycle couriers are going to be a growth industry someday...

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2005\03\02@135116 by Dave VanHorn

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At 01:43 PM 3/2/2005, James Newtons Massmind wrote:
>And now for something COMPLETELY different:
>
>At the risk of sounding like some tree-hugging eco fanatic, I'll ask: What
>is all that shipping doing to our planet?
>
>I've got a big thing for buying local and "growing your own" where possible.
>I don't buy eggs anymore. If not for my wife and kids, I wouldn't buy
>chicken and I would eat a lot more rabbit.

Here in the Heartland, a couple of homeless guys were arrested and jailed
because they had clubbed a couple wild rabbits for dinner....

At least they did get a meal in the end.




2005\03\02@140101 by Alex Harford

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On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:43:45 -0800, James Newtons Massmind
<.....jamesnewtonKILLspamspam@spam@massmind.org> wrote:
> And now for something COMPLETELY different:
>
> At the risk of sounding like some tree-hugging eco fanatic, I'll ask: What
> is all that shipping doing to our planet?
>

>
> What I am suggesting is that we remember this: If (when?) the cost of
> transportation rises to the point that import/export is no longer effective,
> we are the people who can "pick up the slack" and supply the local market.

Problem is, the true cost of transportation and burning fossil fuels
is never borne by the people who are doing the burning.  :-(

http://www.truehealth.org/climnw05.html

Living in an urban area, I try to do my best to go green, but my other
hobby (autocrossing) is kind of at odds with that.

Alex

2005\03\02@144512 by Tony Smith

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{Quote hidden}

Of course, the 'paperless office' doesn't help.  I think the price of paper
is far too cheap.

As an example, I spent a few months at a Australian telco, who were pushing
the 'go green, recycle, rah rah rah barrow'.  Near me there were 2 printers,
each about 4 years old. (The entire floor probably had 30 or so printers.)
Each of these printers had done 500,000 pages each.

2 printers, 1 MILLION pieces of paper.

500 sheets to a ream, 2000 reams of paper.  Ream is about 50mm thick, so a
100 metre pile of paper.  At $AU5 a ream, $10K.  Chickenfeed.

I wonder if it's possible to tax it out of existance.

Tony

2005\03\02@152321 by Roland

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At 06:46 AM 03/03/2005 +1100, you wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>>...............
>
>100 metre pile of paper.  At $AU5 a ream, $10K.  Chickenfeed.
>
>I wonder if it's possible to tax it out of existance.
>

why do so many people think that giving money to government is a cure?, for
anything?
- import taxes to protect local industry
- sin taxes on alcohol/// to curb drinking///
- increased taxes to curtail/modulate a booming economy
the list goes on..


Regards
Roland Jollivet

2005\03\02@170602 by Tony Smith

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{Quote hidden}

Well, telling people to stop printing out crap doesn't seem to work.

Ok, how about prohibition on printer paper then?  Seeing a black market
appear should be amusing.

Failing that, we're left with greenies raiding offices & setting their
printers on fire.

Tony

2005\03\02@194822 by martinb

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As a form of price support, In California almost all Orange juice is from
Florida Concentrate and the reverse is true in Florida.
Otherwise it would be so cheap that the farmers would not be able to grow
it. Weird, huh?



> At 11:57 PM 3/1/2005, Russell McMahon wrote:
>>Forestry is a major NZ industry.
>>We have paper mills but export a large proportion of our logs "raw".
>
> All the sugar in Hawaii is imported from the US mainland...
>
>
> -

2005\03\02@211258 by Mike Singer

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Russell McMahon  wrote:
> Cheapest version - substantially cheaper than some was UPM Kymmene.
> Seemed good to me. Looks OK.
>
> Made where I wondered.
> Googles ...
>
> Finland!

Google again with the phrase

"UPM-Kymmene imports timber to Finland from North-West Russia"

Regards,
Mike.

2005\03\02@214021 by SM Ling

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>500 sheets to a ream, 2000 reams of paper.  Ream is about 50mm thick, so a
100 metre pile of paper.  At $AU5 a ream, $10K.  Chickenfeed.

>I wonder if it's possible to tax it out of existance.

HP, Lexmark, etc have been doing the taxing for a long time now.

Ling SM


2005\03\02@232634 by Russell McMahon

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> "UPM-Kymmene imports timber to Finland from North-West Russia"


       http://w3.tracingimports.upm-kymmene.com/tag/internet/tagintern.nsf/AllByLanguageID/B28AA0DBF73BCA53C22569B000471305_1?OpenDocument

Not too surprising - according to my reading the Finns have a long
history of interaction with Russia :-)

AFAIK the Molotov Cocktail was invented by the Finns but named in
honour of a Russian (Stalin's right hand man).
(Although, many people would have used similar devices for a long time
previously but not with that name).

FWIW at one stage if not now, NZ was importing unprocessed Russian
logs !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A fine example of "carrying coals to Newcastle".


       RM

2005\03\03@072759 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Roland wrote:

>>100 metre pile of paper.  At $AU5 a ream, $10K.  Chickenfeed.
>>
>>I wonder if it's possible to tax it out of existance.
>
> why do so many people think that giving money to government is a cure?, for
> anything?
> - import taxes to protect local industry
> - sin taxes on alcohol/// to curb drinking///
> - increased taxes to curtail/modulate a booming economy
> the list goes on..

The German word for "tax" is "Steuer". Translating "Steuer" back to English
-- not considering any special context -- comes out as something like
"steering". This is an aspect of taxes that most words in other languages
don't convey.

One of the basic problems of capitalist theory and its application is that
many costs are not paid for by the user of a product or service. They are
hidden in the common costs of the society, or are left as a burden for
future populations. That's where taxes sometimes come in, usually in a
rather clumsy and not very logical or efficient manner, trying to "steer"
things in a better direction (in the best-case scenario).

The logical application of the capitalist model would be that every product
or service would have to take the full burden to pay for cleaning up every
side-effect. Everything else is socialism... :)

Gerhard

2005\03\03@073548 by Howard Winter

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Dave,

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 13:51:36 -0500, Dave VanHorn wrote:

> Here in the Heartland, a couple of homeless guys were arrested and jailed
> because they had clubbed a couple wild rabbits for dinner....

I'm amazed - what were they charged with?  So in the Land of the Free, it's now illegal to catch your own
food?  Where would that leave Jed Clampett?  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\03@074434 by Howard Winter

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Martin,

On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:48:21 -0800 (PST), KILLspammartinbKILLspamspamsonic.net wrote:

> As a form of price support, In California almost all Orange juice is from
> Florida Concentrate and the reverse is true in Florida.
> Otherwise it would be so cheap that the farmers would not be able to grow
> it. Weird, huh?

It's not weird, it's Bollocks!  ('scuse the outburst)

Messing about with agricultural prices is a Bad Thing from the start.  It's where the EU started out when it
was the Common Market (Don't blame me, I voted "No"!).  Result:  farmers who are lazy, inefficient or just
crooked get handouts so thay can continue like that.  Italy had (maybe still has) subsidies for olive groves,
but never audited the claims.  When outsiders started checking the figures, they found things like sites that
had been a shopping centres for ten years that were still getting the subsidy for being an olive grove!  This
is just a single example among thousands that show that if you try to change things by using secondary methods
(financial for example) people, the most versatile animal on the planet, will adapt and find ways to exploit
the situation and thwart the original purpose.  It's what we do!!!

(/rant)

Cheers,



Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\03@082217 by Russell McMahon

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> The logical application of the capitalist model would be that every
> product
> or service would have to take the full burden to pay for cleaning up
> every
> side-effect. Everything else is socialism... :)

Shields up:

Pure capitalism and pure socialism are both exercises in grossest
stupidity and to be avoided at all costs. The society that each of us
would consider "ideal" varies, but for the overwhelming majority it
falls somewhere between the two extremes. Some elements of shared
responsibility and shared benefits which are not directly proportional
to our load on or advantages gained from our social environment is the
expectation of almost all of us. Even Mr JG <you know who you are :-)
> falls in this category, if I may be so bold as to say so. [[While
doing so won't change things, if it makes you feel better you can send
some $ or equivalent to James to support the list's operation :-) ]].

Why, in a system which most claim has no absolutes, so many wish to
classify socialism or capitalism as absolutely without merit would be
puzzling, were it not for the known illogicality of human nature.

Shields still up



       RM

2005\03\03@082218 by Russell McMahon

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>> Here in the Heartland, a couple of homeless guys were arrested and
>> jailed
>> because they had clubbed a couple wild rabbits for dinner....

> I'm amazed - what were they charged with?  So in the Land of the
> Free, it's now illegal to catch your own
> food?  Where would that leave Jed Clampett?  :-)

Beverley Hills.


       RM

2005\03\03@092843 by Howard Winter

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On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 02:13:10 +1300, Russell McMahon
wrote:

> Where would that leave Jed Clampett?  :-)
>
> Beverley Hills.

Russell, you're deliberately misunderstanding for comic
effect!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\03@095535 by Dave VanHorn

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At 08:13 AM 3/3/2005, Russell McMahon wrote:
>>>Here in the Heartland, a couple of homeless guys were arrested and jailed
>>>because they had clubbed a couple wild rabbits for dinner....
>
>>I'm amazed - what were they charged with?

Cruelty to animals.

>>So in the Land of the Free, it's now illegal to catch your own food?

It's legal, but only in season, and with the appropriate licences (taxes) paid.

>>Where would that leave Jed Clampett?  :-)

Wasn't he from West Va?


2005\03\03@100847 by John Ferrell

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A lot of what you see coming is already in existance but it is
"underground".
The rural area where I live there is a lot of local commerce that occurs
without advertising. In some cases the vegtables & such are behind the house
on a table with a copy of the current supermarket flyer with sale prices...
Just leave the money in the coffee can!

Things like eggs are loss leaders and are more practical to buy in town. Few
people with chickens raise enough to sell their eggs. When we are lucky
enough to score a few there is no question they are better!

With supermarket prices as low as they are on chicken and my aversion to
butchering them I will continue to buy them in town. Rabbit is good, but
butchering them is especially unpleasant.

We have pine forests here that get old and must be harvested or lost. Many
farmers get pretty stressed out with clearcutting and replanting. A clear
cut forest is very ugly for many years. The only market for the pine is pulp
wood and the margins are very thin there. Most of the hardwood goes for fire
wood or rough cut for farm buildings. The last time I bought 2X4 lumber at
the home improvement store it was marked from Belgium!

I agree the transportation costs are totally out of control. Small items
like shoe laces cost more to ship than manufacture. They are nearly
unavailable.

We have also found that buying beef and having it butchered & processed is a
lot more expensive than buying it at the store!

It is a strange world we live in.

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2005\03\03@103231 by Cnc002

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In a message dated 3/3/2005 7:45:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,
RemoveMEHDRWTakeThisOuTspamh2org.demon.co.uk writes:
It's not weird, it's Bollocks!  ('scuse the outburst)

Messing about with agricultural prices is a Bad Thing from the start.  It's
where the EU started out when it
was the Common Market (Don't blame me, I voted "No"!).  Result:  farmers who
are lazy, inefficient or just
crooked get handouts so thay can continue like that.  Italy had (maybe still
has) subsidies for olive groves,
but never audited the claims.  When outsiders started checking the figures,
they found things like sites that
had been a shopping centres for ten years that were still getting the subsidy
for being an olive grove!  This
is just a single example among thousands that show that if you try to change
things by using secondary methods
(financial for example) people, the most versatile animal on the planet, will
adapt and find ways to exploit
the situation and thwart the original purpose.  It's what we do!!!

(/rant)

Cheers,



Howard Winter
St.Albans, England
Unless things have changed since I worked for an Italian company,  even if
that shopping center, whatever, wasn't getting subsidies for the olive grove,
they would probably still get subsidies for the shopping center.  When I worked
for a fairly large Italian OEM of industrial woodworking machinery, even
though they were making many millions off sales, the government still subidized
them with millions more for the factory, nothing to do with agriculture at all.  
And as far as I know, that is still going on.  I could understand some limited
help to companies in a temporary bind but to do it for companies that are
extremely profitable on their own just doesn't make sense.

Well, my two cents worth.

Randy Abernathy
4626 Old Stilesboro Road
Acworth, GA 30101
Ph / Fax: 770-974-5295
E-mail: spamBeGonecnc002spamBeGonespamaol.com

I furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your
industrial woodworking machinery. My background as Senior Service Engineer for the
SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory training, combines with my
extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and CNC
machinery to offer you needed support for your machinery.

2005\03\03@103935 by Howard Winter

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John,

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:12:13 -0500, John Ferrell wrote:
> Many farmers get pretty stressed out with clearcutting and replanting. A clear
> cut forest is very ugly for many years.
> The only market for the pine is pulp
> wood and the margins are very thin there. Most of the hardwood goes for fire
> wood or rough cut for farm buildings.

Good grief!

I had a look in Home Depot yesterday (I'm in New York until this evening) and I was amazed at the timber
available.  In the UK, B&Q (the nearest equivalent to Home Depot - even uses the same orange livery!)
pretty-much only sells softwood (pine, spruce, fir), it's often lousy quality, and it's not cheap even then
(you wouldn't think it grew on trees :-)  Home Depot had maple and red oak in planed planks - something I've
never seen before.  If I want hardwood planks I have to go to a specialist woodyard, it's normally only
rough-sawn in thickness and not at all in width ("waney edged") and the quality and availability is very
variable.  And the price is horrendous.  OK it wasn't cheap in Home Depot - Red Oak was $6.55 a linear foot in
1" x 12", so you wouldn't build a house with it, but at least it's available "round the corner" for projects
that call for it.

So howcome those farmers of yours don't get their hardwood planked, loaded into a container and sent across
the pond?  I'm sure we could buy it for a lot more than they currently get and a lot less than we currently
pay!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\03@105532 by William Chops Westfield

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On Mar 3, 2005, at 6:28 AM, Howard Winter wrote:
>
>> Where would that leave Jed Clampett?  :-)
>>
Jed got rich because he struck oil hunting ON HIS OWN PROPERTY.
Like many 'News stories', we don't know much of anything about
the homeless guys who caught the rabbits.  Clearly it wasn't their
own property, but the degree of acceptability of hunting varies
a lot depending on just how rural the surrounds are.  But "homeless"
tends to imply pretty urban, so you're probably talking about killing
rabbits in a city park...

BillW

2005\03\03@131917 by James Newtons Massmind

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> > Here in the Heartland, a couple of homeless guys were arrested and
> > jailed because they had clubbed a couple wild rabbits for dinner....
>
> I'm amazed - what were they charged with?  So in the Land of
> the Free, it's now illegal to catch your own food?  Where
> would that leave Jed Clampett?  :-)
>

The issue is the definition of "public" land. Most countries prohibit you
from hunting on other than your own land. In this case, if I remember
correctly, it was a park.

---
James.


2005\03\03@132846 by Dave VanHorn

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At 01:19 PM 3/3/2005, James Newtons Massmind wrote:
> > > Here in the Heartland, a couple of homeless guys were arrested and
> > > jailed because they had clubbed a couple wild rabbits for dinner....
> >
> > I'm amazed - what were they charged with?  So in the Land of
> > the Free, it's now illegal to catch your own food?  Where
> > would that leave Jed Clampett?  :-)
> >
>
>The issue is the definition of "public" land. Most countries prohibit you
>from hunting on other than your own land. In this case, if I remember
>correctly, it was a park.

Hmm.. Kind of leaves the homeless out in the cold again, doesn't it.


2005\03\03@134958 by Dal Wheeler

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Pretty amazing.  Here in the north west, a few years back, there was a
huge surge in rabbit population and had a few bunny baseball festivals.  
Wasen't appreciated by the national press, but they didn't have to deal
with the critters eating up all their stock either...

Dave VanHorn wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2005\03\03@190158 by John Ferrell

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Two years ago in early December we had an early season ice storm that did
great damage to our trees. That left me and may others with a lot of nice
hardwood and no place to go with it. There is still so much on the ground
that those willing to cut firewood can have it for free and they are very
picky, taking only the easiest to get. Many woods wound up getting totally
cleared and the wood burned on site.

6 or 7 years ago Hurricane Fran took down many huge hardwood trees. In the
Raleigh NC area they burned the wood without regard to its potential value
for nearly a year! I have several Red Oaks that went down in that storm that
I tried to give away for several years. They are now in a state of
decomposition that I can break them up with my back hoe and get them out to
burn.

There simply is no organization in place that will allow economical salvage
of these resources.

I do the best I can manage to clean up my little forest to reduce the fuel
load in case of fire.

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2005\03\03@195723 by Russell McMahon

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> Two years ago in early December we had an early season ice storm
> that did great damage to our trees. That left me and may others with
> a lot of nice

Large row of pine was felled here a while ago.
Owners took major timber and left branches etc for firewood for free.

Group arrived with a chainsaw mill and proceeded to make large number
of planks on the spot.
I was suitably impressed, never having seen how easily this is done
with a portable mill.

Oak planks sound good :-)


       RM

2005\03\04@003342 by William Chops Westfield

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Shortly after we had moved into out current house, about 10 years
ago, a large Oak fell somewhat on the house (crashed through part
of the roof, knocked off the power.  Rumble, crash, dark.  What
fun!)  Insurance pays (or would pay) for removing the tree from the
house and most of the repairs, but does not cover removing the fallen
tree from the yard, even though that's a pretty significant expense...

So at a suggestion, I invited the local "wood turning mailing list"
over to cart away as much as they wanted, and sure enough about a
half dozen people showed up with trailers and tools, and carted
away most of the wood, gleefully chortling about their luck...
(These are the people who like to take a big chunk of wood, mount
it on a big lathe, and then remove most of the wood with tools,
leaving a rather nice bowl.  Or something.  Apparently big chunks
of oak are rather difficult to come by...)

It lent an interesting perspective to the whole event...

BillW

2005\03\04@061537 by Gerhard Fiedler

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Russell McMahon wrote:

> Shields up:

I moved myself in here... seems safer :)

>> The logical application of the capitalist model would be that every
>> product or service would have to take the full burden to pay for
>> cleaning up every side-effect. Everything else is socialism... :)

> Pure capitalism and pure socialism are both exercises in grossest
> stupidity and to be avoided at all costs.

But the thought is intriguing that like many others of the distortions,
large-scale pollution basically gets created by the fact that it is not
very well integrated into the capitalist model. If pollution showed up on
the cost side of the balance sheets of whoever causes it, things would
probably be different. The permission model ("so much pollution is
acceptable, so we grant for free or for a fixed fee that much to you")
doesn't work well. No incentive to reduce.

> Why, in a system which most claim has no absolutes, so many wish to
> classify socialism or capitalism as absolutely without merit would be
> puzzling, were it not for the known illogicality of human nature.

I think it's still puzzling... :)

> Shields still up

2005\03\04@160940 by Peter L. Peres

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On Wed, 2 Mar 2005, James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> And now for something COMPLETELY different:
>
> At the risk of sounding like some tree-hugging eco fanatic, I'll ask: What
> is all that shipping doing to our planet?

Imho, mostly nothing. The shipping part is the one part that is *really*
efficient. It takes less fuel to move something by ship 10,000 km than
by anything else, for 1000 km. It also keeps quite a few longshoremen's
unions in the pink afaik.

Peter

2005\03\04@160954 by Peter L. Peres

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On Wed, 2 Mar 2005, Alex Harford wrote:

> Living in an urban area, I try to do my best to go green, but my other
> hobby (autocrossing) is kind of at odds with that.

Alcohool used as fuel allows more compression and thus more hp withe the
same engines ;-)

Peter

2005\03\04@162614 by Peter L. Peres

picon face


On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 TakeThisOuTmartinbEraseMEspamspam_OUTsonic.net wrote:

> As a form of price support, In California almost all Orange juice is from
> Florida Concentrate and the reverse is true in Florida.
> Otherwise it would be so cheap that the farmers would not be able to grow
> it. Weird, huh?

Not so weird. Guess who pays for the transport and the organisation (not
to mention the juice proper) ? Hint, hint (it's someone very near you -
likely someone who voted his government into power ?).

Peter

2005\03\04@164809 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 01:05 AM 3/4/2005 +0200, you wrote:


>On Wed, 2 Mar 2005, James Newtons Massmind wrote:
>
>>And now for something COMPLETELY different:
>>
>>At the risk of sounding like some tree-hugging eco fanatic, I'll ask: What
>>is all that shipping doing to our planet?
>
>Imho, mostly nothing. The shipping part is the one part that is *really*
>efficient. It takes less fuel to move something by ship 10,000 km than by
>anything else, for 1000 km. It also keeps quite a few longshoremen's
>unions in the pink afaik.
>
>Peter

I worked out the cost of shipping an extremely cheap (dollar or two) item--
those ubiquitous Xmas lights from China. The cost was really negligible if you
filled standard 40' shipping containers (around 2,000 cubic feet usable).
It really
is efficient if you need mass consumer volumes.

As for bulk cargo, in the eighties, Japan was able to get coal from Australia
for less shipping cost than the rail costs of a few hundred miles shipping
from west VA to PA in the US.

It may be like telecom etc. the costs are dominated by the "last mile"
where things have to be handled individually, by road etc. More labor and
much more fuel and required resources (road maintenance, etc).

The longshoremen don't make nearly as much per shipment as they used to,
now that containerized freight dominates shipping. But the shipping has
expanded incredibly, so there is room for lots of very well paid union
workers.

James' idea of automating the "last mile" picking is an "out of box" idea
in the right direction.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
RemoveMEspeffspamTakeThisOuTinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com




2005\03\04@170431 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> > What is all that shipping doing to our planet?
>
> Imho, mostly nothing. The shipping part is the one part that
> is *really* efficient. It takes less fuel to move something
> by ship 10,000 km than by anything else, for 1000 km. It also
> keeps quite a few longshoremen's unions in the pink afaik.

I was using the word shipping, but I was thinking about FedEx, UPS, USPS,
trucks, trains, and so on rather than just ships. I do understand that ships
are very efficient and with an aggregated load of everything going from one
place to one place almost no damage is done.

But before that load makes it onto the ship, it has to come from many
different places. And when it gets off the ship at the other end, it has to
go to many different places as well. It is at these end points that the
efficiency breaks down.

As an example, in the USA, trees that come in from Finland are all going to
arrive at the same port. Then they will be distributed over the thousands of
miles of US lands ("sea to shining sea") by trucks to local mills, processed
into lumber and then shipped back out again over ("purple mountain
majesties") thousands of miles to lumber yards, made into products by
companies and those will again, be shipped over thousands of ("amber waves
of grain") miles to stores or warehouses before making the final trip to the
homes of consumers, etc...

In my home town in Oregon, you can drive about 15 miles to Mr. Lindsey's
shop, which is situated on his 50 acres, and you can buy furniture he made
from his own trees.  He never runs out since pine grows about as fast as he
needs to cut it down. You can also drive about 30 miles to the new Ikea
store...

Will Mr. Lindsey's sons bother to learn all the things required to turn wood
into furniture and try sell it to local people? Or will they go work at the
Ikea store? And which will be better in the long run?

I hope they choose wisely. And all of us as well. And knowing where each
thing comes from, will that make a difference in our choices? And will our
choices affect only ourselves?


Ahhh... I feel a little Frost coming on...

 
TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,  
And sorry I could not travel both  
And be one traveler, long I stood  
And looked down one as far as I could  
To where it bent in the undergrowth;
 
Then took the other, as just as fair,  
And having perhaps the better claim,  
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;  
Though as for that the passing there  
Had worn them really about the same,
 
And both that morning equally lay  
In leaves no step had trodden black.  
Oh, I kept the first for another day!  
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,  
I doubted if I should ever come back.
 
I shall be telling this with a sigh  
Somewhere ages and ages hence:  
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I-  
I took the one less traveled by,  
And that has made all the difference.

Robert Frost (1874-1963).  Mountain Interval.  1920.  


2005\03\04@193106 by David Minkler

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face

>I took the one less traveled by,  
>And that has made all the difference.
>  
>
or not.  How would he know?

>Robert Frost (1874-1963).  Mountain Interval.  1920.
>
Dave


2005\03\04@194139 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
> I worked out the cost of shipping an extremely cheap (dollar or two)
> item--
> those ubiquitous Xmas lights from China. The cost was really
> negligible if you
> filled standard 40' shipping containers (around 2,000 cubic feet
> usable). It really is efficient if you need mass consumer volumes.

I just bought a standard garden shovel. Quality was probably not
marvellous, but it was better than that of the shovel that I didn't
have at present. It has a solid looking / feeling / hopefully being
wooden handle and a nice metal blade. It was made in China.  Cost was
$NZ4.96 - about $US3.50. When you can manufacture, ship, wholesale and
retail a shovel for $US3.50 the shipping cost for each must be about
as good as for fairy lights. If I wanted to send it back to China by
cheapest means possible I suspect the price for shipping alone would
be an order of magnitude higher than the purchase price.


       RM
.

2005\03\04@204053 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
I've read that poem so many times; and it never fails to amaze me each time
I find something new in it.

A few readings ago I had the same question. Here are some comments on it:

- He may be justifying his decision by deluding himself as to the importance
of it.

- He may be admitting that it made little difference; "all the difference"
may not be much.

- He may be saying that traveling alone did have an effect because he was
outcast, has seen things from a different point of view, or was just lonely.

All of those apply to the discussion of what we should be doing with our
natural (and other) resources. If I choose to "take the one less traveled
by" and grow my own eggs, heat with wood from my own trees, etc... does it
make a difference? For any of us? Does it make a difference when we decide
to do something in a way that is different from what most of the people do?

- Are we deluding ourselves that we have any effect? There must be a huge
number of butterflies who have flapped their wings in Texas without causing
a hurricane in Florida, but what if the one who did, had not flapped it
wings?

- Would we do it that way without caring that it makes no difference? If we
only do it to make a difference, and it doesn't, why do we do anything?

- Does making that one little change in our path lead us in a direction that
changes OUR OWN lives, if no one else's?

I would very much recommend that anyone interested in these questions see
the movie "Nomads" with Pierce Brosnan.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/B00005V9I1/jamesnewtonpers as it is
an entertaining examination of what happens when you start down a path that
someone else has followed. If you are a reader, try
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0553234226/jamesnewtonpers for the
Chelsea Quinn Yarbro mobilization of that screenplay. This is basically the
argument that parents use against "trying" cigarettes or pot. It leads you
down a path that may result in a sticky end. Of course, if your kid is that
easily led, you may have other problems...

In clinical studies, the effect of a treatment is quite often impossible to
really know due to the passage of time. Who can say how many would have
gotten well anyway? The floridization of water is a classic example. The
change in dental health used to justify it originally may well have been due
to better oral hygiene over the course of the study. The fact that fluoride
is an industrial waste that corporations would otherwise have to pay to
dispose of surly has no influence... A good read on how clinical studies are
done would be great... Let me know if you find one.

I do what I do because it makes me feel better about my life. I talk about
it and publish what I've found (bad and good) in order to brag, in order to
help, and in order to record some of my life for anyone who chooses to care
in the future. Basically all selfish.

And so, I end by saying, BUY LOCAL! Or don't, I will anyway.

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2005\03\07@192434 by David Minkler

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face
James,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.  I have no doubt that the choices
we make influence the outcome in both our own lives and those with whom
we make contact.  The common interpretation of Frost implies however
that taking the "path less traveled" results in an improvement.  The
intent of my comment was merely to suggest that, as we cannot travel
both paths and observe both outcomes, we cannot know what the difference
is nor, which outcome was "better".

Incidentally, I applaud your efforts at becoming (at least somewhat)
independent.  At a minimum, it gives you a different perspective on how
these processes work and, who knows, maybe you will come up with a
better mousetrap.  In a crisis, you (and your family) will be better off
because you won't be depending upon an over stressed (broken)
infrastructure to provide your needs.   Additionally, your neighbors
will also be better off because you won't be a load on that already over
stressed infrastructure (which is attempting to provide their needs).  
Further, you may have developed an expedient (efficiency aside) means of
providing at least some of the needed goods and/or services.  Thus, you
help to crisis proof both your own life and that of those around you.  I
think that's a "Good Thing".

Dave

James Newtons Massmind wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>>{Original Message removed}

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