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'[OT] Large download problem'
2005\09\12@173158 by Denny Esterline

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Ok, all this recent talk about linux got me interested. Looks like Knoppix is an painless way to try it out. So I've attempted to download the ~700 MB ISO image several times now. Each time the download stops at 81.5 MB. I've tried different PCs on different network segments through a browser and with command line FTP - no joy.
Does anyone have any of the following:
A) a viable reason why this is causing me greif.
B) a suitable workaround.
C) an alternate download site where the files are split into chunks less than 81.5 MB.
D) some other suggestions.
E) a reason to not give up on this and reload win98.
Thanks,
-Denny

2005\09\12@175116 by Alex Harford

face picon face
On 9/12/05, Denny Esterline <spam_OUTdesterlineTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, all this recent talk about linux got me interested. Looks like Knoppix
> is an painless way to try it out.

> B) a suitable workaround.

Bittorrent is great for fast, big downloads.

Instructions are here:  http://www.knoppix.net/get.php

2005\09\12@175239 by Richard Prosser

picon face
I had the same problem & put it down to the network manager here at
work (I was trying to download overnight).
Can you use a download manager that will allow you to recover from
partial downloads without restarting from sctratch? It depends on the
fileserver to some extent as to whether it's supported or not.
I have used "Download Express" in the past & found it OK. except  I
couldn't get it to work through the firewall here - and trying to
download at home via a dialup was not on for files of this size.

Richard P

On 13/09/05, Denny Esterline <.....desterlineKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2005\09\12@180047 by Marcel Duchamp

picon face
Denny Esterline wrote:
> Ok, all this recent talk about linux got me interested. Looks like Knoppix
> is an painless way to try it out. So I've attempted to download the ~700 MB
> ISO image several times now. Each time the download stops at 81.5 MB. I've
> tried different PCs on different network segments through a browser and with
> command line FTP - no joy.
>  Does anyone have any of the following:
> A) a viable reason why this is causing me greif.
> B) a suitable workaround.
> C) an alternate download site where the files are split into chunks less
> than 81.5 MB.
> D) some other suggestions.
> E) a reason to not give up on this and reload win98.

Items B) and D):
Buy it on CD -or- DVD.  Here's a place I have used in the past:
http://cart.cheapbytes.com/cgi-bin/cart

Not as free as in beer - or as in downloading for hours at a time
repeatedly ;>

But only about six bux plus shipping for the DVD version...

2005\09\12@180519 by John Nall

picon face
Denny Esterline wrote:

>> So I've attempted to download the ~700 MB
>ISO image several times now.
>
I'm assuming that you have a WAN, since no one would try and download an
ISO image on a dial-up.  Given a WAN, I cannot think of any reason why
you should have such a problem.  I downloaded the FC4 ISO's with no
problem.  However, one easy way to avoid the grief that you seem to be
having is to just buy some CD's with the ISO images already on them.  
There are lots of places where you can do that at a very reasonable
price.  http://www.cheapbytes.com, for example, is good, and there are lots of
others.  I note that Knoppix 3.9 sells for $4.99 at cheapbytes, although
I didn't check further to see if there might be some additional shipping
charge.

Different people would recommend different distros to you, and each one
would have a good reason for the recommendation.  Personally, I have
found CentOS the most stable and easiest to install, and Fedora Core 4
(FC4) the most exciting.  But, as I say, there are equally valid views
on the other distros.

John

2005\09\12@181646 by PicDude

flavicon
face
Is it your ISP connection?  If not, go to distrowatch.com or linux.org/dist
and you should find many mirrors for it.  Alternatively, you could just have
it sent to you on CD for $3.95 + some minimal shipping cost from
http://www.osdisc.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi/products/livecd/knoppix

win98 is enough of a reason not to use win98 :-)

Cheers,
-Neil.


On Monday 12 September 2005 04:31 pm, Denny Esterline scribbled:
{Quote hidden}

2005\09\12@182815 by PicDude

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face
On Monday 12 September 2005 05:05 pm, John Nall scribbled:
> ...
> Different people would recommend different distros to you, and each one
> would have a good reason for the recommendation.  Personally, I have
> found CentOS the most stable and easiest to install, and Fedora Core 4
> (FC4) the most exciting.  But, as I say, there are equally valid views
> on the other distros.


As an evaluation OS, knoppix is great because it's "live" -- insert the CD and
boot up, and Voila! -- you have a running linux system, without any
installation.

After that, IMO, I've never really found any of the popular Linux distros to
be unstable -- ease of installation becomes the next important factor.  Still
meaning to try out CentOS when I can find some free HD space on one of these
machines.

Cheers,
-Neil.


2005\09\13@020240 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Sep 12, 2005, at 2:31 PM, Denny Esterline wrote:

> So I've attempted to download the ~700 MB
> ISO image several times now. Each time the download stops at 81.5 MB.

I had similar problems.  No error message, but severely truncated file.
Never did figure it out; gave up on knoppix and downloaded debian
instead.
(debian insists on bittorrent; perhaps that did work better...)

BillW

2005\09\13@132739 by John Ferrell

face picon face
I have been down the route you are taking...
I ordered Knoppix from BigCat_isospamKILLspamhotmail.com
He accepts payment from PayPal, so I felt their was no risk involved beyond
the cost. After looking at his pricing, it was clear that he likes to sell
more than a couple of disks at a time. As I recall, I ordered a couple
different distributions for about $10. He threw in about four more. I am
still wading through the order.

Knoppix seemed like a good idea but it takes several minutes to boot up on a
600mhz Celeron machine. There does not appear to be a simple way to avoid
the reconfiguration on every boot.

I understand that I should be able to load it to hard disk, but just how to
is not obvious!

After a while I tend to put it away and get back to electronics.

May be this will spark my interest again.

I was talking to a fellow this weekend that ran across a one day sale
somewhere on a system with Linspire preinstalled for a couple hundred bucks.
He says it works great...

The problem with Linux is not the software, it is the documentation!

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2005\09\13@135456 by John Nall

picon face
John Ferrell wrote:

> > The problem with Linux is not the software, it is the documentation!

Perhaps in a sense.   But "a" problem (as opposed to "the" problem) is
that Linux is kind of in a similar situation to pic's, in that a newbie
can find a wealth of information by using Google and going to different
websites, but sifting through all that information and separating what
is pertinent from what is either outdated, wrong, irrelevant, or a
combination of all those things can be quite a chore for someone who is
trying to figure out what it all means.  The documentation is all
available for Linux, though.  More documentation than you could ever
shake a stick at, and you don't have to buy a "Secrets" book to get it,
either.

Personally (and I freely admit to being biased) I don't think that
anyone should just look at Linux as a free replacement for Windows.  It
is sometimes touted as that, but that is a mistake, IMHO.  Linux has
things Windows does not have, and vice-versa.  I like Linux better for
the simple reason that I grew up using Unix in a university setting, and
so got all my prejudices established early.  And I still like using a
command line environment,  which Windows doesn't offer.  (Yeah, I know
how to use the command prompt in Windows, and in fact do use it from
time.  But it does not compare).

However, I think that a lot of users are probably better off using
Windows.  (Not in a moral sense, of course, but only in a practical
sense.  :-)

John

2005\09\13@140909 by Alex Harford

face picon face
On 9/13/05, John Ferrell <.....johnferrellKILLspamspam.....earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> The problem with Linux is not the software, it is the documentation!

How To Look Like A UNIX Guru:

http://www.cs.usfca.edu/~parrt/course/601/lectures/unix.util.html

The page is serious, although when I first saw the title I thought it
was going to be a link to the Dilbert cartoon ("Here's a nickel, buy
yourself a real operating system").

Like John Nall just, the problem isn't lack of documentation, it's
aggregating the information and keeping it current.

I find the best way to find documentation is to look for:

- man page
- FAQ website
- Wiki
- Mailing list archives
- IRC channel
- Posting to the mailing list

Alex

2005\09\13@233439 by John Ferrell

face picon face
I should have said "my problem"!
It is not the quality or the volume. I just cannot get the knack of getting
where I need to be.
I don't think I am alone though.
John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2005\09\13@233549 by John Ferrell

face picon face
Thanks for the url, I will take another run at it...

John Ferrell    
http://DixieNC.US

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Harford" <EraseMEharfordspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclistspamspam_OUTmit.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Large download problem


{Quote hidden}

> --

2005\09\14@011000 by digitaladdictions

picon face
> I'm assuming that you have a WAN, since no one would try and download an
> ISO image on a dial-up.

 Not saying its a smart thing to do but back in the day when i was on
diaulup I downloaded several Linux ISOs. This was when most distros
were limited to 1 CD so < 700MB but still its doable. Determination
conqures all.

bittorrent is probably the best bet, for me its always been the
fastest source at 300+ KB/s  while the traditional mirrors often times
are closer to 100KB/s.  Bittorrent will also resume as long as people
are still seeding the file on the same tracker witch isnt a problem
with linux distros usually.

Justin

2005\09\14@083112 by John Nall

picon face
digitaladdictions wrote:

>>I'm assuming that you have a WAN, since no one would try and download an
>>ISO image on a dial-up.
>>    
>>
>
>  Not saying its a smart thing to do but back in the day when i was on
>diaulup I downloaded several Linux ISOs. This was when most distros
>were limited to 1 CD so < 700MB but still its doable. Determination
>conqures all.
>  
>
Yeah, I did not mean it cannot be done.  As you say, a combination of
determination, luck, and lots of time will do it.  Once you have WAN
access, you wonder how you ever got along with 56 KBS, though.  :-)  
Although I can remember using an old surplus TTY and accessing the
university computer at 110 baud, and it seemed neat as a tick after
having to submit jobs in batch mode.  So it all depends on what you are
used to I suppose.

John

2005\09\14@161105 by Peter

picon face


On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, John Ferrell wrote:

{Quote hidden}

There is a command on the disk that is called knoppix-hd-install.sh or
similar. I will look and report exactly.

The reconfiguration is slow when booting from cd. When bootimg from hdd
it is 10 times faster.

Knoppix is great because it allows people to run linux without
installing (or destroying) their present installation (windows or
whatever), and with zero configuration knowledge. Otherwise Knoppix *is*
Debian linux, in an expertly polished way.

Runnig Knoppix from cd can be 10 times slower than the same thing run
from a hdd installation.

The reconfiguration on every boot is its strength. It allows people to
pull and replace hardware without ever 'reinstalling' or 'installing
drivers' or any such thing. The price is the time it takes to boot. On
the other hand, once it's running, why turn it off ? ;-)

Peter

2005\09\14@174800 by Peter

picon face

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, John Ferrell wrote:

> I should have said "my problem"!
> It is not the quality or the volume. I just cannot get the knack of getting
> where I need to be.
> I don't think I am alone though.

I am not sure what problems people have when they try out linux, but in
my limited (by about 10 years of continuous use) experience, it works
like this:

1 - person sees appealing linux experience described on a mailing list
2 - person decides to try it out
3 - person finds more appealing linux experiences from more mailing
lists and tries to apply same, while searching for solutions for his
problems.
4 - disappointment follows
5 - person gives up

Steps 3 through 5 are wrong imho. The vast majority of linux write-ups
and archived messages out there are from people who are not necessarily
apt to explain how things are done. They often omit a few steps or take
a modified installation for granted. The 'only' right way to do it is to
stick like glue to the instructions of the version you are installing,
to the official line of the distribution you have chosen.

The 'right' way to start imho, is to get a taste of how it works with an
all-in-one installation-less (!!!) version like knoppix or a live cd
from other distributions AND IGNORE THE RELATIVELY SLOW SPEED that will
result when booting and running. Even if you have a cdrom-exploding x64
cdrom drive it is at least 10 times slower than a modern hard disk, and
all live cdrom linux programs are compressed and need to be decompressed
on the fly on top of that. Once the installation will be on hard disk,
it will be about 10 times faster (let's say significantly faster),
including bootup.

After that one can install a proper version (the one tried or another).
Again: stick like glue to the exact instructions bundled with your
distribution, until you know what you are doing. Do not install packages
from other distributions. Packages with the same suffix (e.g. .rpm) are
NOT necessarily compatible with your system. Do not modify things you do
not understand. There are significant configuration differences between
distributions. What applies to one may ruin another. Red Hat, Suse and
Debian put and use configuration systems in different places. Applying
experience gained with one, with another, may lead to frustration.

I started with Slackware 3 (linux kernel 1.2.13 or so) nearly 10 years
ago and I have the experience of tinkering with command line scripts way
past midnight because of slightly misleading instructions in an obscure
email found in in some mailing list. Do not go there, it will ruin your
experience. Get the system up and operating as designed, then you will
be able to enjoy it and modify it at will.

The live linux cd is the way to go for starts (no installation). The
live linux cd that got me going was a Lasermoon linux demo from
lasermoon.co.uk (long defunct) that came on the cover cd for PC Windows
(!) magazine in ~1995 or 96, and required two floppy disks to be burned
to boot it. I still have that cd but I am afraid to mount it since it
has a crack in the lexan and it could explode at high rpm.

Peter

2005\09\14@224929 by John Ferrell

face picon face
I have found a url
http://www.knoppix.net/wiki/Hd_Install_HowTo
I will give it a try in a day or two.
A medical test and a volunteer job have made this week a little tight on
time.

John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2005\09\15@153647 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Tue, 2005-09-13 at 23:35 -0400, John Ferrell wrote:
> I should have said "my problem"!
> It is not the quality or the volume. I just cannot get the knack of getting
> where I need to be.
> I don't think I am alone though.
> John Ferrell
> http://DixieNC.US

The secret to Linux documentation is to think of it this way: there is
none.

While there is some documentation available for most projects, the scope
of the documentation varies too much to be really useful.

So, with that said, what is one to do? Forget documentation.

Use google. When you have a problem (i.e. error message, or odd
behaviour), go to google, type in exactly what you see and chances are
you'll find your answer.

A good example of this is something like a web server like apache. If
you read the documentation (as a newbie) you will loose you mind. If,
OTOH you do a quick google search you'll discover where the config file
for apache is. Then you open the config file and discover it contains
VERY useful comments, and most of the defaults are exactly what you
want. Every once in a while you'll hit something that confuses you, go
to google and changes are someone else out there was also confused and
has posted the solution.

It took a long time for me to realize this was the best way to "learn"
linux. It certainly didn't seem obvious, or intuitive, but lately it has
been more and more successful.

Of course, the second trick with Linux is to be curious, often you will
be surprised that the location of some setting is exactly where you'd
guess it would be.

TTYL

-----------------------------
Herbert's PIC Stuff:
http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/

2005\09\16@124743 by John Ferrell

face picon face
I have successfully loaded Knoppix 3.7 on the Celeron 700 mhz machine. It
has a slow CD rom so things are a bit tedious but I will soon put in on the
HD and continue.

I would like to do the dual boot thing but I have yet to puzzle it out.
John Ferrell
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2005\09\16@143638 by Jose Da Silva

flavicon
face
On September 16, 2005 09:48 am, John Ferrell wrote:
> I have successfully loaded Knoppix 3.7 on the Celeron 700 mhz
> machine. It has a slow CD rom so things are a bit tedious but I will
> soon put in on the HD and continue.
>
> I would like to do the dual boot thing but I have yet to puzzle it
> out. John Ferrell
> http://DixieNC.US

If you successfully ran Knoppix, then best to install it.

Mandrake linux has a graphical install, if you were to dual boot windows
and Mandrake, I would put windows towards the front of the harddrive
because that is where windows products "expect" to be located. Then put
linux towards the back (assuming you use only 1 harddrive).
(Some 1st generation windows products, such as the 1st windows2000 also
re-write the MBR on bootup and shutdown, so if you successfully
installed linux and end up with windows "only" after running windows,
you will need to look for a patch to turn-off the windows MBR feature.)

The linux drives are named as hda, hdb, hdc, hdd..... unless you are
running sata or another type of non-ide drive.

My preference for suggested partitioning, supposing you have only 1
harddrive (you can see this using linux "fdisk"):
hda1        C:\        Windows (lots of space since almost all windows programs get
installed/dumped in C:)
hda2        (rest of harddrive - known as extended partition to windows)

extended partitions start at 5 and I don't recommend going beyond 9
since some old programs used to define partitions by single
partition...example hda"1",hda"9"....bad->hda"10"
hda5                E:\  or /mnt/win_e        Win32 format        (*note below)
hda6        /home,        ext2,        (generous amount of space 1G or more)
hda7        /opt                ext2,        (your experimental dumping ground)
hda8        /                ext2,        (need maybe 2..4G, go for 4G)
hda9        swap        (generally 2xRAM... 512KB..1GB is enough)

*note, Windows will automatically configure itself to recognize the
win32 E: partition and with linux, it should probably be /mnt/win_e .
I suggest drive E: because some windows CDROM packages are hardwired to
expect C: as windows and D: as the CDROM so to aleviate grief later,
use E: or whatever comes next as the next drive letter.  E: should be
formated via linux as a Win32 partition because the latest versions of
windows can recognize Win32 partitions but have no ability to format
such partition-types. Drive E makes a good swap partition or shared
partition between your windows (drive C:) and your linux. So if you
want to dump stuff from linux into windows, drop it in partition E and
then pick it up from drive E: when you run windows. I won't go into the
technical reasons why, but it alleviates a couple of hicups on the
windows side if you do it that way.

you'll note I mention ext2 instead of ext3. You're running a 700mhz
machine and it isn't a critical server, so it isn't necessary to have
journalling.


boot options assuming "lilo" from hda.
with the above choices... then your menu would be:
windows        hda1
linux                hda8

I'm pointing this out in case Knoppix isn't as graphical for
installation as Mandrake is  ;-)
Mandrake just released the latest "candidate" here:
http://www.linux.org/news/2005/09/15/0004.html
...but since you are only learning at this point, I'll suggest to avoid
it for now because the release candidates tend not to get updated
patches versus official releases.

My fstab is a bit different, so hopefully I didn't err in simplifying
the fstab below, but in case you need to fix /etc/fstab here is a
general idea of what to expect with the above config, and assuming
drive D: is your cdrom.
-----------
/dev/hda1 /mnt/win_c vfat umask=77,iocharset=iso8859-1,codepage=850 0 0
/dev/hda5 /mnt/win_e vfat umask=777,iocharset=iso8859-1,codepage=850 0 0
user,exec,nodev,nosuid,rw,conv=binary,uid=0,gid=0,umask=77 0 0
/dev/hda6 /home ext2 defaults 1 2
/dev/hda7 /opt ext2 defaults 1 2
/dev/hda8 / ext2 defaults 1 1
/dev/hda9 swap swap defaults 0 0
/dev/hdb /mnt/cdrom auto
umask=0022,user,iocharset=utf8,noauto,ro,exec,users 0 0
#/dev/fd0 /mnt/floppy auto user,iocharset=utf8,sync,noauto,exec,users 0
0
none /mnt/floppy supermount
dev=/dev/fd0,fs=ext2:vfat,--,umask=0022,iocharset=iso8859-1,sync,codepage=850
0 0
---------------
If Knoppix sets all that up for you automatically, then great!
If Knoppix simply sets up your computer as C: and linux, go with that
first since it did do all the work for you versus this configuration
which is a bit more customized.

> {Original Message removed}

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