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'[OT] Sony Memory Stick'
1999\12\15@113212 by John A. Craft

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x-html> Anybody ever dealt with the Sony Memory Stick?  It's used for their digital cameras, and comes in 4, 8, 16, 32, & 64 MB levels.

It's specs list the interface as serial 10-pin, what protocol does these "sticks" use?

The specs are listed below :
       Memory Type - Flash memory (MSA-4A: 4MB)
       Connector - 10-pin
       Interface - Serial
       Operating Voltage - 2.7V to 3.6V
       Power Consumption - Average: Approx. 45mA; Standby: Approx. 130A
       Access Speed - Writing: Maximum 1.5MB/second; Standby: Maximum 2.45MB/sec
       Operating Environment - 0C - 60C (non-condensing)
       Dimensions (LxWx H) - Approx. 21.5 x 50 x 2.8mm
       Weight - Approx. 4g (0.14 oz.)
       Supplied Accessories - Memory Stick Storage Case, label, operating instructions

1999\12\15@134852 by M. Adam Davis


Jc.
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Not only is is proprietary, it is licensed.  See
http://www.eet.com/story/OEG19991013S0036

Apparently the major targeted use is audio and video, but of course that
requires some sort of copy protection scheme, so it is unlikely that
they will ever release or allow others to use the memory stick interface
without license.  We could speculate on the signaling and pin functions,
but I doubt that it's just a simple flash memory device.  Chances are it
contains a uController with some sort of challenge/encryption scheme.

However, Atmel makes 2MB & 4MB flash memories in tiny bga packages (all
serial interface).  We can fit about 8 of these onto a pcb the size of a
piece of chewing gum, and if someone decided to they could fit many more
die on such a board.  There are other memory suppliers which sell
higher-density memories as well, some for less cost.

Chances are the recording industry would jump on someone who did so
without copy protection.  But I feel an open format would go much
further in the consumer market than a closed format (for instance,
minidisc vs CD ;-)

-Adam

"John A. Craft" wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\12\15@141953 by Quitt, Walter

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My new TRV10 comes with a Memory Stick reader.
It produces a serial (RS-232) stream.  I think
I'll hook a protocol analyzer to it.  Never
know?  Then, of course, I have to open up
the box and see what's inside.

I hope my wife won't kill me!

Walt.

{Original Message removed}

1999\12\15@142822 by Martin McCormick

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       This is almost not [O.T.] because this could be a fabulous way
for PIC's to use large amounts of memory for data logging and huge
buffers.  A couple of things need to happen for the fun to start.  We
need a fixture that can hold a memory stick and bring out the
connections to a set of pins that we could either mount on a circuit
board or wire wrap to.

       A lot of present commonly-available logic devices are 5-volt.
Are there chips that do bidirectional 3/5-volt interfacing so
everything sees the levels it should?

       One last consideration about the Sony Memory Sticks.  How many
times can one write to them before they wear out, assuming they behave
like present flash devices?

       I have an absolutely perfect application for one of these if
it doesn't wear out too quickly.  I would estimate that 500 to 1,000
uses would be a minimum number, depending upon what the sticks cost.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK
OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Data Communications Group

"John A. Craft" writes:
>Anybody ever dealt with the Sony Memory Stick?  It's used for their digital=
>cameras, and comes in 4, 8, 16, 32, & 64 MB levels.

1999\12\15@145149 by Martin McCormick

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"M. Adam Davis" writes:
>but I doubt that it's just a simple flash memory device.  Chances are it
>contains a uController with some sort of challenge/encryption scheme.

       Anything is possible, but wouldn't it make more sense to put
all the encryption strategy in the device using the memory stick and
build a different key in to each widget so that if one was to just pop
out the Memory Stick and put it in to something else, it would be full
of data that didn't decode because the key was different?  That way,
one could sell Memory Sticks by the train load and the sticks would
work in any device designed to take them, but the data, once recorded,
would only be readable in that specific device or any device that used
the same key.

       Another thing to look out for kind of along these same lines
is that there might not really be 32 or 64 megabytes of data addresses
but that there is some sort of compression/expansion engine built in
to the stick and that we would have to know how the algorithm worked
in order to actually store that amount of data, ourselves.  Sony's
devices would be designed with this in mind and so they could call
this a 8 or 64 megabyte module because that's how much it can store
when addressed correctly.

       I hope anybody on the list who is able to can set us straight
so we can either forget this for now or plan to design around it in
the future.

Martin McCormick

1999\12\15@150402 by John A. Craft

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<x-flowed>$29.95   4M
$39.95   8M
$69.96  16M
$109.95 32M
$189.95 64M

Retail direct from sony.
Jc


At 01:26 PM 12/15/99 -0600, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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1999\12\15@150409 by Brent Brown

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Martin McCormick wrote:
>         This is almost not [O.T.] because this could be a fabulous way for
> PIC's to use large amounts of memory for data logging and huge buffers.  A
> couple of things need to happen for the fun to start.  We need a fixture
> that can hold a memory stick and bring out the connections to a set of
> pins that we could either mount on a circuit board or wire wrap to.

Absolutely, I aggree with the possibilities for PIC use, but my vote
would be for the SmartMedia(TM) card format instead. Take a look
at the Toshiba web site at some of their devices.

In my opinion, these things are used by more digital camera
manufacturers and are therefore more available, and should be a
strong contender for long survival in the market amongst other
contenders. 32MByte cards you can buy now at retail stores,
128Mbyte shouldn't be too far away, the connectors too I think are
not too hard to get hold of. The electrical specs you can pick up
from a Toshiba data sheet. Looks pretty easy.

The only thing difficult might be making it data format compatible
with other SmartMedia(TM) systems as this is covered by a
SSFDC forum specification which I think requires money to join.
The advantage then would be you could take the card out of your
PIC based datalogger, voice recorder, or whatever, and slip it into a
3.5" floppy adaptor and read it on your PC.

Anyone used these cards on a PIC or other micro project yet? I
would be surprised if no one has. Please send your comments to
the list if you know more than what I've said so far! (Could start a
new thread [OT] SmartMedia cards?). Brent.

Brent Brown
Electronic Design Solutions
16 English Street
Hamilton, New Zealand
Ph/fax: +64 7 849 0069
Mobile: 025 334 069
eMail:  spam_OUTbrent.brownTakeThisOuTspamclear.net.nz

1999\12\15@162652 by Jinx

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>From a review of 1999 Comdex -

".....But Gates was thoroughly upstaged by a man from outside the
computer industry establishment.

That was Sony CEO Nobuyuki Idei, who dazzled his own keynote
audience with an array of the devices that will define Sony's near future.

Idei kicked off by inviting guitarist Steve Vai onstage to play a few licks.
Vai's performance was recorded on a MemoryStick (the tiny stick-of-
gum-sized storgae device soon to be common to Sony products), slipped
into a new MemoryStick Walkman and played back to the crowd. Nice trick.

Idei then played back some  more music from an even newer device - the
Music-Clip, a pen-sized digital audio player designed as an accessory
for Sony's ultra slim Vaio notebokk PCs.

Next, he reached into his pocket and produced something really new, and
really really small. The Audio on Silicon player, exposed for the first time
at Comdex, is a complete digital audio player the same size as the
MemoryStick.

That's 21.4mm wide, 50mm long and 3.5mm thick. Into that Sony has
packed 160Mb of storage and an integrated circuit that processes
digital music and delivers it to a headphone socket.

Yet another virtuoso technical effort - again the same size as the Memory
Stick - followed. The InfoStick is a wireless adapter that, slipped into any
MemoryStick-compatible product, adds support for Bluetooth, a new
but widely backed wireless specification that provides a way for a range
of devices - computers,cellphones, cameras, printers - to communicate"

Jinx

{Quote hidden}

1999\12\15@165615 by Martin McCormick

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Brent Brown writes:
>Absolutely, I aggree with the possibilities for PIC use, but my vote
>would be for the SmartMedia(TM) card format instead. Take a look
>at the Toshiba web site at some of their devices.

       I am definitely not locked in on any particular format, so
whatever will let us store and retrieve lots of data through a few
lines is okay with me.  If it happens to be nonvolatile and one can
reuse the device thousands of times, that's even better.

       I think there could even be a market for experimenter sockets
that at least produce a set of pins that can be either soldered to a
printed circuit board or pushed in to a nest that can then be
wire-wrapped.  Anything to get the logistics on a manageable scale.

1999\12\15@210504 by William K. Borsum

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At 01:26 PM 12/15/99 -0600, you wrote:
>        A lot of present commonly-available logic devices are 5-volt.
>Are there chips that do bidirectional 3/5-volt interfacing so
>everything sees the levels it should?
YES there are! very low power CMOS.  74LHC and a74LVC series as I recall.
Power with 3.5 volts.  Inputs can go to 7.
Kelly



William K. Borsum, P.E. -- OEM Dataloggers and Instrumentation Systems
<.....borsumKILLspamspam@spam@dascor.com> & <http://www.dascor.com>San Diego, California, USA

1999\12\15@233204 by Robert.Rolf

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On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Brent Brown wrote:
> Martin McCormick wrote:
> >         This is almost not [O.T.] because this could be a fabulous way for
> > PIC's to use large amounts of memory for data logging and huge buffers.  A
> > couple of things need to happen for the fun to start.  We need a fixture
> > that can hold a memory stick and bring out the connections to a set of
> > pins that we could either mount on a circuit board or wire wrap to.

And you'd better have a license from SONY to use their devices.

Sony zealously protects their 'proprietary' protocols as the people who
made a Winblows based CD jukebox program painfully found out. They reverse
engineered the protocols, and were selling a program that could control the
Sony and Pioneer juke boxes via a PC serial port. Sony sent them
a 'cease and desist' order, and after many months of trying to get Sony to
license them the use of the SIRC protocols, they gave up and yanked Sony
support from the software. (Sony wanted ridiculous $$$ for the license).
Sony really lost on this one since their jukeboxes were the most popular
mates to the program. This was more than 2 years ago, and things may have
changed since then.

> Absolutely, I aggree with the possibilities for PIC use, but my vote
> would be for the SmartMedia(TM) card format instead. Take a look
> at the Toshiba web site at some of their devices.

And what is Toshiba's licensing position?

These days its all about 'Intellectual Property' protection. You can't use
GIF's today without infringing on Unisys's patent (broswer/viewer writers
just pay Unisys the royalty), so how are things EVER going to incrementally
improve now?

> In my opinion, these things are used by more digital camera
> manufacturers and are therefore more available, and should be a
> strong contender for long survival in the market amongst other
> contenders. 32MByte cards you can buy now at retail stores,
> 128Mbyte shouldn't be too far away, the connectors too I think are
> not too hard to get hold of. The electrical specs you can pick up
> from a Toshiba data sheet. Looks pretty easy.

And you won't be behovin to a sole source and their higher prices. Why did
Beta fail, even though it was a technically superior technology (7 M/s head
speed vs 4.8 M/s for VHS= 45% wider bandwidth)? Because Sony charged a LOT
more for their licensing. BetaHiFI was MUCH better than VHS-HiFI (I
modified BetaHiFimachines to get 50kHz bandwidth on their AFM channels but
couldn't do better than 15kHz on VHS because of the head switching noise),
but again the license fees shrank the market.

> The only thing difficult might be making it data format compatible
> with other SmartMedia(TM) systems as this is covered by a
> SSFDC forum specification which I think requires money to join.
> The advantage then would be you could take the card out of your
> PIC based datalogger, voice recorder, or whatever, and slip it into a
> 3.5" floppy adaptor and read it on your PC.

That would certainly be a good way to go. Multivendor support and easy
user interfacing.

I too think that SmartMedia is the better way to go since it gets you
away from the sole-source problem, and licensing headaches.

Robert
--Robert.RolfspamKILLspamUAlberta.ca
"If 'debugging' is the process of removing errors, then 'programming' must
be the process of putting them in".

1999\12\16@021523 by Nigel Goodwin

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In message <.....Pine.A41.4.10.9912151959350.50020-100000KILLspamspam.....gpu3.srv.ualberta.c> a>, Robert Rolf <EraseMErobert.rolfspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTUALBERTA.CA> writes
>And you'd better have a license from SONY to use their devices.
>
>Sony zealously protects their 'proprietary' protocols as the people who
>made a Winblows based CD jukebox program painfully found out. They reverse
>engineered the protocols, and were selling a program that could control the
>Sony and Pioneer juke boxes via a PC serial port. Sony sent them
>a 'cease and desist' order, and after many months of trying to get Sony to
>license them the use of the SIRC protocols, they gave up and yanked Sony
>support from the software. (Sony wanted ridiculous $$$ for the license).
>Sony really lost on this one since their jukeboxes were the most popular
>mates to the program. This was more than 2 years ago, and things may have
>changed since then.

I'm surprised to hear that!. Sony publish the details of SIRC so that
you can interface devices to it, I obtained the technical bulletin from
Sony UK a couple of years ago. I don't see how they could have any legal
rights to stop you plugging into a socket on equipment manufactured by
them, that's what it's designed for, and there are many devices which do
just this, mostly for controlling VCR's for editing tapes. I suspect
Sony were just threatening, and that was sufficient to make the
programmers withdraw support.

BTW, I presume this was Sony USA?.
--

Nigel.

       /--------------------------------------------------------------\
       | Nigel Goodwin   | Internet : nigelgspamspam_OUTlpilsley.demon.co.uk     |
       | Lower Pilsley   | Web Page : http://www.lpilsley.demon.co.uk |
       | Chesterfield    | Official site for Shin Ki and New Spirit   |
       | England         |                 Ju Jitsu                   |
       \--------------------------------------------------------------/

1999\12\16@120349 by Daniel J. Bernal

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<META content='"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=GENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>Hello,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Any one can tell me how to UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS
LIST</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Thank you</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Daniel Bernal</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><A
href="@spam@danielKILLspamspambernal.com">KILLspamdanielKILLspamspambernal.com</A></FONT></DIV>> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><B>-----Mensaje original-----</B><BR><B>De:
</B>John A. Craft &lt;<A
href="
RemoveMEcraftTakeThisOuTspamNCS-SSC.COM">spamBeGonecraftspamBeGonespamNCS-SSC.COM</A>&gt;<BR><B>Para: </B><A
href="TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU">RemoveMEPICLISTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU</A> &lt;<A
href="PICLISTEraseMEspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU">EraseMEPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU</A>&gt;<BR><B>Fecha:
</B>Mi&eacute;rcoles, 15 de Diciembre de 1999 12:36 p.m.<BR><B>Asunto: </B>[OT]
Sony Memory Stick<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>Anybody ever dealt with the Sony Memory
Stick?&nbsp; It's used for their digital cameras, and comes in 4, 8, 16, 32,
&amp; 64 MB levels.<BR><BR>It's specs list the interface as serial 10-pin, what
protocol does these &quot;sticks&quot; use?<BR><BR>The specs are listed below
:<BR><FONT
face=Symbol>&middot;<X-TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB></FONT><FONT
face=verdana>Memory Type - Flash memory (MSA-4A: 4MB) <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Symbol>&middot;<X-TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB></FONT><FONT
face=verdana>Connector - 10-pin <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Symbol>&middot;<X-TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB></FONT><FONT
face=verdana>Interface - Serial <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Symbol>&middot;<X-TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB></FONT><FONT
face=verdana>Operating Voltage - 2.7V to 3.6V <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Symbol>&middot;<X-TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB></FONT><FONT
face=verdana>Power Consumption - Average: Approx. 45mA; Standby: Approx.
130&micro;A <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Symbol>&middot;<X-TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB></FONT><FONT
face=verdana>Access Speed - Writing: Maximum 1.5MB/second; Standby: Maximum
2.45MB/sec <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Symbol>&middot;<X-TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB></FONT><FONT
face=verdana>Operating Environment - 0&deg;C - 60&deg;C (non-condensing)
<BR></FONT><FONT
face=Symbol>&middot;<X-TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB></FONT><FONT
face=verdana>Dimensions (LxWx H) - Approx. 21.5 x 50 x 2.8mm <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Symbol>&middot;<X-TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB></FONT><FONT
face=verdana>Weight - Approx. 4g (0.14 oz.) <BR></FONT><FONT
face=Symbol>&middot;<X-TAB>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</X-TAB></FONT><FONT
face=verdana>Supplied Accessories - Memory Stick Storage Case, label, operating
instructions <BR></FONT>
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       <TD width=205><BR>Jc.<BR>
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1999\12\16@170900 by Mike Werner

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Robert Rolf wrote:
<snip>
> These days its all about 'Intellectual Property' protection. You can't use
> GIF's today without infringing on Unisys's patent (broswer/viewer writers
> just pay Unisys the royalty), so how are things EVER going to incrementally
> improve now?

Actually, I do believe that what Unisys has patented is the LZW
compression that is commonly used to compress those GIFs.  So if you were
to use uncompressed GIFs then Unisys wouldn't have any call to bother
you.  Though personally I would just use a different format - probably
either JPG or PNG.
--
Mike Werner  KA8YSD           |  "Where do you want to go today?"
ICQ# 12934898                 |  "As far from Redmond as possible!"
'91 GS500E                    |
Morgantown WV                 |  Only dead fish go with the flow.

1999\12\17@084437 by M. Adam Davis

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Unisys owns both the compression algorithm used in GIFs, and the file
format of the GIF file, which was originally created by/for compuserve,
and subsequently sold to Unisys.

-Adam

Mike Werner wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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