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'[OT]fancy think: add a fan in air inlet of car'
2005\03\21@201120 by rosoftwarecontrol

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Days ago, I changed the air filter of my car.
I am astonished by the abvious increasing of milage from this change! More than 10% and faster starting!

But chance, I get one very good fan, 10W/16V.
I think of adding this middle size fan at behind of air filter, to increasing the efficiency of filter further. I hope to see more improvement/long last in milage and power.
Had any one else tried before?


2005\03\21@204703 by Alex Harford

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On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:10:37 -0500, microsoftwarecontrol
<spam_OUTmicrosoftwarecontrolTakeThisOuTspamyahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> But chance, I get one very good fan, 10W/16V.
> I think of adding this middle size fan at behind of air filter,
> to increasing the efficiency of filter further. I hope to see
> more improvement/long last in milage and power.

This would be known as an 'electric supercharger'.  Good idea, but it
doesn't work very well in practice.

This is a scam IMO:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7962696221&category=33741

Just as an example, my car's intake system flows about 200cfm at its
worst point... I wonder how much power is required for a fan that can
push 200cfm.

Alex

2005\03\21@214210 by Josh Koffman

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Well that's one of the most annoying auctions I've ever read. I can't
believe people would actually buy something from that guy.

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:47:03 -0800, Alex Harford <.....harfordKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
> This would be known as an 'electric supercharger'.  Good idea, but it
> doesn't work very well in practice.
>
> This is a scam IMO:
> cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7962696221&category=33741

2005\03\21@215917 by Jinx

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> Well that's one of the most annoying auctions I've ever read

I felt like I'd fallen into the screen

2005\03\21@232250 by rosoftwarecontrol

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The fan I have, is a good one, made in Germany.
I think it worth a try.

Another thing in this issue: I don't hope high pressure raise,
I only need to compensate the pressure lost due to air filter
get dirty. And a simply pressure drop test or a differential
pressure sensor will tell all.

Theorically, fan effiency in the flow rate range, is more desive
than only fan power. Although 200 cfm (according post of
Alex Harford ) is very high flow rate, but how much pressure
head you hope in this rate will decide the power needed. I
simply don't hope a high pressure gain.

My major is fluid mechanics, also. I am confident to see
positive result in this.






{Original Message removed}

2005\03\21@232649 by rosoftwarecontrol

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The fan on the auction is the type:
low noise and low effiency. useless for sure.

The one I have is exle type and well designed.

I will do little fluid mechanics home work and
differential pressure sensor measuring. To
see the practical situation.





{Original Message removed}

2005\03\22@034145 by Howard Winter

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On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 20:10:37 -0500, microsoftwarecontrol wrote:

>...<
> But chance, I get one very good fan, 10W/16V.
> I think of adding this middle size fan at behind of air filter,
> to increasing the efficiency of filter further. I hope to see
> more improvement/long last in milage and power.
>
> Had any one else tried before?

Yes, Bentley, in the 1920's.  It's called a supercharger!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\03\22@035901 by Hulatt, Jon

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Why not just change your air filter more frequently? Or replace it with
an aftermarket "K&N" type filter, which has a much lower pressure drop
anyway.

But don't forget that if you radically alter the flow dynamic of your
engine, it'll probably not fuel correctly. Which will at best reduce
fuel economy, and at worst kill your engine. On the one hand you
actually have the fan blades obstructing the air path, and on the other
you'll be causing turbulence... with a major in fluid dynamics you'll
realise that it's v. hard to work out what will actually happen to the
airflow (explaining why so much car intake stuff still, to this day, is
done on a flow bench, experimentally). You could actually end up
reducing the flow. Or reducing the efficacy of the air filter (perhaps
the fan might cause bits of dirt and grit to pass through the engine).

Jon

> {Original Message removed}

2005\03\22@040238 by Hulatt, Jon

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But Bentley's engine driven one, was engine driven because it needs
kilowatts of power in order to make more power than it uses.

JOn

> {Original Message removed}

2005\03\22@071450 by Nigel Duckworth

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You don't mention an air-flow meter in your posts

so I'm assuming your car has a carburettor?



If so then to deliver fuel correctly it requires a pressure

differential across it. Superchargers and Turbos 'suck' air

through carbs, you're proposing a blow-through system,

these are mostly fuel-injected.



If you increase the upstream pressure with your fan

then the carburettor will be fooled into delivering

less fuel unless you also pressurise the float bowl.



What speed were you thinking of running the fan at

for cranking, idling or maximum revs?



Think about the implications of a piece of your

fan coming loose and ending up in the cylinders,

not nice!



I don't want to be a kill-joy but the chances of getting

something very wrong are... very high.



Up to you but I'd just check the filter regularly.



Regards,



Nigel Duckworth









--{Original Message removed}

2005\03\22@074715 by Hulatt, Jon

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The MG Metro Turbo (brit car) had a Low-pressure, non intercooler turbo
in blow-through config, and using a carburettor ( SU HS 6). But thinking
about it, the SU carb is pretty ideal for a blow through config due to
the way it works.

> {Original Message removed}

2005\03\22@091459 by alan smith

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Think I will stick to my cow magnets on the fuel
lines.... *grin*




               
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2005\03\22@094602 by Howard Winter

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Jon,

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:47:16 -0000, Hulatt, Jon wrote:

> The MG Metro Turbo (brit car) had a Low-pressure, non intercooler turbo
> in blow-through config, and using a carburettor ( SU HS 6). But thinking
> about it, the SU carb is pretty ideal for a blow through config due to
> the way it works.

Indeed - nice carb, shame about the car!  :-)

Cheers,

Howard Winter
St.Albans, England
Currently own a Rover 620ti - it's that little "t" that makes all the difference :-D


2005\03\22@101621 by Nigel Duckworth

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That's an interesting example and reminds me that

some modern sports motorcycles duct high(er)

pressure air from the front of the fairing into the

air-box to achieve a similar affect.



Like the Metro the bikes carburation or fuel-injection will

have been calibrated to take account of this.







-------Original Message-------



From: Hulatt, Jon

Date: 03/22/05 12:49:57

To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.

Subject: RE: [OT]fancy think: add a fan in air inlet of car





The MG Metro Turbo (brit car) had a Low-pressure, non intercooler turbo

in blow-through config, and using a carburettor ( SU HS 6). But thinking

about it, the SU carb is pretty ideal for a blow through config due to

the way it works.

2005\03\22@102047 by Support - KF4HAZ

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Actually much has been done using blower fans 1000cfm+ on carbs in the field of mud racing.
In mud racing the air is usually pulled from above the dash on the passenger side and pushed out through 1 or 2  4" hoses to a sealed chamber around the carb this reduces the chance of pulling muddy water into the engine. Typical fan ratings for the 2 hose system would be something like 2 fans rated 850cfm @ 10-15 psi.
The fans are usually connected to a WideOpenThrottle switch as most mud racers only know two speeds (WOT and off).
I do not know if they have mud racing in your area, it well may be a "red-neck" sport, but if they do talk to some of them for pointers (but keep in mind that the loosest screw in most mud trucks is the nut behind the wheel)

KF4HAZ - Lonnie

<snip>
{Quote hidden}

> > --{Original Message removed}

2005\03\22@102651 by Hulatt, Jon

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lol. Didn't notice your footer, thought you might not know what a metro
was!  

{Quote hidden}

> -

2005\03\22@103156 by Alex Harford

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On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:15:53 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), Nigel
Duckworth <EraseMEnduckworthspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTcompuserve.com> wrote:
> That's an interesting example and reminds me that
> some modern sports motorcycles duct high(er)
> pressure air from the front of the fairing into the
> air-box to achieve a similar affect.

There's lots of classic musclecars that do this too, with a 'cowl
induction' hood, where the air intake comes from the bottom of the
windsheild.  The theory is that the air builds a high pressure area
when driving at speed.

98-02 Trans Am's have nostrils that face forward, called 'Ram Air'.

Alex

2005\03\22@114829 by Nigel Duckworth

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Not much mud around here but it sounds like great fun :)
Enclosing the whole carb would also act on the float
chamber and compensate for the increased pressure.  

(My apologies for the double line spacing in my posts,
I'm still trying to work out why it's happening. I use
Incredimail instead of Outlook these days and
send as plain text???)  



--{Original Message removed}

2005\03\22@130946 by Dave Lag

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I remember early DIY turbo projects that pulled the carb off the
manifold stuck on a metal box, remounted the carb and put a nice plexi
cover on the box. Equalized the pressure and solved the problem of the
carb seals leaking too... water injection , a little re-jetting and off
you go....
D

Nigel Duckworth wrote:
> Not much mud around here but it sounds like great fun :)
> Enclosing the whole carb would also act on the float
> chamber and compensate for the increased pressure.  
..........

2005\03\22@143407 by PicDude

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Sounds like some primitive form of supercharging.  The turbulent air on the
mass-air sensor (I'm assuming EFI engine) might cause some driveability
hassles, leading to less fuel mileage.

Cheers,
-Neil.


On Monday 21 March 2005 07:10 pm, microsoftwarecontrol scribbled:
{Quote hidden}

2005\03\22@144533 by Peter

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On Mon, 21 Mar 2005, microsoftwarecontrol wrote:

> The fan on the auction is the type:
> low noise and low effiency. useless for sure.
>
> The one I have is exle type and well designed.
>
> I will do little fluid mechanics home work and
> differential pressure sensor measuring. To
> see the practical situation.

A usual axial fan only does 20-100mm H2O at stalled airflow, the air
filter in a car can rob 300mm H2O and more easily. You need a
centrifugal fan, like the one in a car vacuum cleaner. This can do
3000mm H2O stalled airflow, if it's in good condition and well built.
You seem to know what you are doing, plase share the results with the
list after you do it ?

good luck,
Peter

2005\03\22@144541 by Peter

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On Tue, 22 Mar 2005, Alex Harford wrote:

> There's lots of classic musclecars that do this too, with a 'cowl
> induction' hood, where the air intake comes from the bottom of the
> windsheild.  The theory is that the air builds a high pressure area
> when driving at speed.

Except the high pressure areas are under the car (unless using spoilers
to prevent that) and in the shockwave behind obstacles, and they are not
flush with the body. The air scoop must be raised out of the boundary
layer to work well. Some F1 cars have a huge yacht-like wind scoop air
intake. That works well probably.

Peter

2005\03\22@144550 by Peter

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On Mon, 21 Mar 2005, Alex Harford wrote:

> Just as an example, my car's intake system flows about 200cfm at its
> worst point... I wonder how much power is required for a fan that can
> push 200cfm.

I would suggest experiments involving a 'car' vacuum cleaner with the
outlet ducted into the air filter. Or changing the paper air filter for
a much lower resistance 'wet' racing unit.

Peter

2005\03\22@224453 by Tad Anhalt

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Peter wrote:
> Except the high pressure areas are under the car (unless using
> spoilers to prevent that) and in the shockwave behind obstacles, and
> they are not flush with the body. The air scoop must be raised out of
>  the boundary layer to work well. Some F1 cars have a huge yacht-like
>  wind scoop air intake. That works well probably.

  Cowl induction hoods do stick up into the airstream (2"+).  NACA ducts
are the ones that don't.

  NACA duct: http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/naca.htm

  Cold air induction systems have been shown to pick up a few tenths of
a second in standing start quarter mile runs.  David Vizard [1] gives as
an example the factory installed cold-air ducting on certain early '80s
Z-28s as being good for about a two tenth of a second reduction over an
open element air cleaner.  Nothing fancy, just a few large tubes run up
to the front bumper area and plumbed into the air filter box.

  That's like putting the car on a ~200 pound diet so it's easy to see
why it might justify some experimentation.

Tad Anhalt
[1] Writer of various performance-oriented books:
"How to Modify your Mini"
www.aptfast.com/APT_Parts/Books/Book_Info/B-123_info.htm
"How to Build Horsepower"
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0931472245/ref%3Dpd%5Fsl%5Faw%5Falx-jeb-9-1%5Fbook%5F4676307%5F3/102-0536218-0752142

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