Post by thread:[TECH] Data over Power Lines (AC)

Hi All. I've been asked to help with a bit of background research for an idea a friend of mine had. He wants to do some data over powerline transmissions. This isn't long distance (it would be within the same building). A few years ago I would have said that it wasn't going to be that possible, but with the number of broadband over powerline devices and the plethora of home networking extenders that use power lines, maybe things have changed? I've been doing some searching around, but as with most things network related, I'm not finding a ton of really useful info out there. Then again, maybe I'm just missing it. His specs aren't too demanding. Speed is somewhere between 100-300kpbs. Might be able to tolerate lower. Bi-directionality is a plus. Low cost is also a consideration, so if there are expensive transformers or the like involved, that might not be too good. I'm going to keep searching, but if anyone has any pointers, even just to manufacturers that do this kind of stuff, I'd appreciate it! Thanks, Josh -- A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 9:18 PM, Josh Koffman <spam_OUTjoshybearTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote: > Hi All. > > I've been asked to help with a bit of background research for an idea > a friend of mine had. He wants to do some data over powerline > transmissions. This isn't long distance (it would be within the same > building). A few years ago I would have said that it wasn't going to > be that possible, but with the number of broadband over powerline > devices and the plethora of home networking extenders that use power > lines, maybe things have changed? HomePlug. Technology is mature and readily available off the shelf - was already available a few years ago (I remember first discussing stuff like this well over 10 years ago). Personally I have fundamental objections to the use of this kit, due to the RF interference it causes in the HF band, but if you're keeping it within a single building at low power and don't have any radio amateur neighbours it's probably not that big a deal. Chri

On Tue, March 13, 2012 4:18 pm, Josh Koffman wrote: {Quote hidden}> Hi All. > > I've been asked to help with a bit of background research for an idea > a friend of mine had. He wants to do some data over powerline > transmissions. This isn't long distance (it would be within the same > building). A few years ago I would have said that it wasn't going to > be that possible, but with the number of broadband over powerline > devices and the plethora of home networking extenders that use power > lines, maybe things have changed? > > I've been doing some searching around, but as with most things network > related, I'm not finding a ton of really useful info out there. Then > again, maybe I'm just missing it. His specs aren't too demanding. > Speed is somewhere between 100-300kpbs. Might be able to tolerate > lower. Bi-directionality is a plus. Low cost is also a consideration, > so if there are expensive transformers or the like involved, that > might not be too good. > > I'm going to keep searching, but if anyone has any pointers, even just > to manufacturers that do this kind of stuff, I'd appreciate it! Microchip has a development board that uses powerline communications: <www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1406&dDocName=en553054> It runs on a dsPIC33. There are other powerline solutions that don't use a general purpose chip, but the dsPIC solution is the only one I've worked with. Powerline communications is challenging- particularly if you are trying to stay in one of the "approved" bands (below 130KHz, for example). By design, AC power is very low impedance- in the milli-ohms, typically up to at least 1 MHz. Add to that all the other noise on the line- getting reliable communications is not trivial. Don't forget the "not kill yourself" part. When you're playing with mains, the risk is *REAL*. Matt Bennett Just outside of Austin, TX 30.51,-97.91 The views I express are my own, not that of my employer, a large multinational corporation that you are familiar with

At 00.37 2012.03.14, you wrote: {Quote hidden}>On Tue, March 13, 2012 4:18 pm, Josh Koffman wrote: >> Hi All. >> >> I've been asked to help with a bit of background research for an idea >> a friend of mine had. He wants to do some data over powerline >> transmissions. This isn't long distance (it would be within the same >> building). A few years ago I would have said that it wasn't going to >> be that possible, but with the number of broadband over powerline >> devices and the plethora of home networking extenders that use power >> lines, maybe things have changed? >> >> I've been doing some searching around, but as with most things network >> related, I'm not finding a ton of really useful info out there. Then >> again, maybe I'm just missing it. His specs aren't too demanding. >> Speed is somewhere between 100-300kpbs. Might be able to tolerate >> lower. Bi-directionality is a plus. Low cost is also a consideration, >> so if there are expensive transformers or the like involved, that >> might not be too good. >> >> I'm going to keep searching, but if anyone has any pointers, even just >> to manufacturers that do this kind of stuff, I'd appreciate it! > >Microchip has a development board that uses powerline communications: ><www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeI>d=1406&dDocName=en553054> >It runs on a dsPIC33. There are other powerline solutions that don't use a >general purpose chip, but the dsPIC solution is the only one I've worked >with. > >Powerline communications is challenging- particularly if you are trying to >stay in one of the "approved" bands (below 130KHz, for example). By >design, AC power is very low impedance- in the milli-ohms, typically up to >at least 1 MHz. Add to that all the other noise on the line- getting >reliable communications is not trivial. And it costs energy. As far as I know it's not a cheap way to transmit data, well at least my powerline-based LAN endpoints get very hot, of course things are less demanding when turning on or off seldomly lights and home appliances. >Don't forget the "not kill yourself" part. When you're playing with mains, >the risk is *REAL*. > >Matt Bennett >Just outside of Austin, TX >30.51,-97.91 > >The views I express are my own, not that of my employer, a large >multinational corporation that you are familiar with. >

Take a look at YTRAN (Israel) products, speed is slower than that, but they work ok. Regards, Sergio Sena On 14 March 2012 18:02, Electron <.....electron2k4KILLspam@spam@infinito.it> wrote: {Quote hidden}> At 00.37 2012.03.14, you wrote: >>On Tue, March 13, 2012 4:18 pm, Josh Koffman wrote: >>> Hi All. >>> >>> I've been asked to help with a bit of background research for an idea >>> a friend of mine had. He wants to do some data over powerline >>> transmissions. This isn't long distance (it would be within the same >>> building). A few years ago I would have said that it wasn't going to >>> be that possible, but with the number of broadband over powerline >>> devices and the plethora of home networking extenders that use power >>> lines, maybe things have changed? >>> >>> I've been doing some searching around, but as with most things network >>> related, I'm not finding a ton of really useful info out there. Then >>> again, maybe I'm just missing it. His specs aren't too demanding. >>> Speed is somewhere between 100-300kpbs. Might be able to tolerate >>> lower. Bi-directionality is a plus. Low cost is also a consideration, >>> so if there are expensive transformers or the like involved, that >>> might not be too good. >>> >>> I'm going to keep searching, but if anyone has any pointers, even just >>> to manufacturers that do this kind of stuff, I'd appreciate it! >> >>Microchip has a development board that uses powerline communications: >><www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeI>d=1406&dDocName=en553054> >>It runs on a dsPIC33. There are other powerline solutions that don't use a >>general purpose chip, but the dsPIC solution is the only one I've worked >>with. >> >>Powerline communications is challenging- particularly if you are trying to >>stay in one of the "approved" bands (below 130KHz, for example). By >>design, AC power is very low impedance- in the milli-ohms, typically up to >>at least 1 MHz. Add to that all the other noise on the line- getting >>reliable communications is not trivial. > > And it costs energy. As far as I know it's not a cheap way to transmit data, > well at least my powerline-based LAN endpoints get very hot, of course things > are less demanding when turning on or off seldomly lights and home appliances. > > >>Don't forget the "not kill yourself" part. When you're playing with mains, >>the risk is *REAL*. >> >>Matt Bennett >>Just outside of Austin, TX >>30.51,-97.91 >> >>The views I express are my own, not that of my employer, a large >>multinational corporation that you are familiar with. >>

Hi Guys, Been using a couple of TP-Link 85Mbps Powerline adaptors for about a year with no problems at all, in fact I just bought some 200Mbps ones for me as I have given the 85Mbps to a friend. But I do have a problem which you Guys may be able to help me with. When you connect the powerline adaptor, for optimal operation you really need to connect sort of directly into the wall socket and not through an extension lead, my problem is that like that you automatically lose two sockets. I got a triple socket adaptor that works well for the powerline adaptor as it is strait out of the wall socket and allows for it to be mounted vertically for optimum cooling, but I would prefer not to use them. What I would like to do is to get an extension lead with a UK mains plug that would also have a socket in it, something similar to a strait through power meter that you can get. This would allow me to use the socket for my extension lead and also for connection of the powerline adaptor. Has any of you ever seen something like that? Thanks Best Regards Luis On 14 March 2012 18:24, A. Sergio Sena <a.s.senaKILLspamgmail.com> wrote: {Quote hidden}> Take a look at YTRAN (Israel) products, speed is slower than that, but > they work ok. > > Regards, > Sergio Sena > > > > > > > > On 14 March 2012 18:02, Electron <.....electron2k4KILLspam.....infinito.it> wrote: > > At 00.37 2012.03.14, you wrote: > >>On Tue, March 13, 2012 4:18 pm, Josh Koffman wrote: > >>> Hi All. > >>> > >>> I've been asked to help with a bit of background research for an idea > >>> a friend of mine had. He wants to do some data over powerline > >>> transmissions. This isn't long distance (it would be within the same > >>> building). A few years ago I would have said that it wasn't going to > >>> be that possible, but with the number of broadband over powerline > >>> devices and the plethora of home networking extenders that use power > >>> lines, maybe things have changed? > >>> > >>> I've been doing some searching around, but as with most things network > >>> related, I'm not finding a ton of really useful info out there. Then > >>> again, maybe I'm just missing it. His specs aren't too demanding. > >>> Speed is somewhere between 100-300kpbs. Might be able to tolerate > >>> lower. Bi-directionality is a plus. Low cost is also a consideration, > >>> so if there are expensive transformers or the like involved, that > >>> might not be too good. > >>> > >>> I'm going to keep searching, but if anyone has any pointers, even just > >>> to manufacturers that do this kind of stuff, I'd appreciate it! > >> > >>Microchip has a development board that uses powerline communications: > >><www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeI > >d=1406&dDocName=en553054> > >>It runs on a dsPIC33. There are other powerline solutions that don't use > a > >>general purpose chip, but the dsPIC solution is the only one I've worked > >>with. > >> > >>Powerline communications is challenging- particularly if you are trying > to > >>stay in one of the "approved" bands (below 130KHz, for example). By > >>design, AC power is very low impedance- in the milli-ohms, typically up > to > >>at least 1 MHz. Add to that all the other noise on the line- getting > >>reliable communications is not trivial. > > > > And it costs energy. As far as I know it's not a cheap way to transmit > data, > > well at least my powerline-based LAN endpoints get very hot, of course > things > > are less demanding when turning on or off seldomly lights and home > appliances. > > > > > >>Don't forget the "not kill yourself" part. When you're playing with > mains, > >>the risk is *REAL*. > >> > >>Matt Bennett > >>Just outside of Austin, TX > >>30.51,-97.91 > >> > >>The views I express are my own, not that of my employer, a large > >>multinational corporation that you are familiar with. > >>--

Hi Brendan, That's what I have at the moment, but I really don't need the two other sockets and also is difficult to control quality... I just had a look at some plug and socket for a friend of mine last weekend and you should see the state of it, it was lucky it didn't cause a fire. Looking at it looks like bad contact between the cheap socket and the plug, that just making me think... Best Regards Luis On Mar 14, 2012 9:36 PM, "Brendan Gillatt" <brendanspam_OUTbrendangillatt.co.uk> wrote: {Quote hidden}> On 14 March 2012 18:57, Luis Moreira <@spam@luis.moreira1575KILLspamgooglemail.com> > wrote: > > What I would like to do is to get an extension lead with a UK mains plug > > that would also have a socket in it, something similar to a strait > through > > power meter that you can get. This would allow me to use the socket for > my > > extension lead and also for connection of the powerline adaptor. > > Has any of you ever seen something like that? > > Have you tried using an adaptor 'brick' like > 'http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41tiiXvgiGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg' > combined with a regular extension lead? > > -- > Brendan Gillatt > http://www.brendangillatt.co.uk >