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'[WWWWWWWWOT] Re: Free East Timor!!!!!'
1999\09\15@192442 by John A. Craft

<x-rich>Don't publish this crap unless you can work a PIC into the story.

At 09:35 PM 9/15/99 +0100, you wrote:


<excerpt><smaller>The US Gov are a group of cocksuckers, they only like
to be the WORLD POLICE when they have some political or economical
interests. They made the Gulf War (and many other wars, like Kosovo just
because they had some interests)  only because of oil, but now people are
being murdered in EAST TIMOR and they just talk, they like to kiss the
Indonesians hass.





John A. Craft                           (601)689-8100 Voice

Vice President, Sr. Analyst             (601)689-8130 Fax

Nation Computer Services, Inc.

MSAAP Bldg 9110       

Stennis Space Center, MS  39529


1999\09\16@103639 by Bruno Carvalho

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1999\09\16@105856 by John A. Craft

noty crap  you It's      not crap is "just" that in East Timor is a
genocide going on and the Int Comm. doesn't do anything.      You must be
Nazi or something like that!!!



Not a NAZI, Conservative Republican, we don't hate anybody except the
ACLU maybe.

The US has no responsibility to FIX everybody else's problems.  If the
problem isn't ours or relate directly to our interest, we should leave it
alone.  The US should not, and can not be the worlds police force.  It
may seem so, but it's just our current President sticking our collective
nose in the affairs of others when it suits HIS needs.  But next year
that will all be over.

So, step up, be a man, and fix your own problems.




1999\09\16@110709 by Andy Kunz

> The US has no responsibility to FIX everybody else's problems.  If the
> problem


Eternity is only a heartbeat away - are you ready?  Ask me how!
------------------------------------------------------------------     - Race Boats - Electronics

1999\09\16@120455 by Pike, Lesley C.

       >>>>So, step up, be a man, and fix your own problems.

Right on!

1999\09\16@212709 by Dennis Plunkett

At 11:03 16/09/99 -0400, you wrote:
>> The US has no responsibility to FIX everybody else's problems.  If the
>> problem

But what about when the US has a hand (Be that not obvious) in creating the
problem in the first place?

> Eternity is only a heartbeat away - are you ready?  Ask me how!
>     - Race Boats
> - Electronics

1999\09\17@132149 by Russell McMahon

picon face
I've stayed out of this thread so far but what the hey.
Here we go.

Lets see, gotta have PICs in it, doesn't it.

Note about here that I am NOT a USA basher, NOT a USA hater. I greatly
appreciate the role of the US of A in society, the world and history. The US
of A is in large part responsible for me not speaking German and or
existing, quite possibly and a lot more. But, it's not perfect. It has done
and still does some fairly unfriendly things - some by omission and some by
commission. When it feels that its interests are threatened it tends to do
more than normal nasty things.

All those who are utterly convinced of the utterly saintly, moral,
upstanding and ethically angelic nature of Henry Kissinger should stop
reading right now.
For those who don't know who Henry Kissinger is/was, if he had died in his
heyday then Richard Nixon would have been ruler of the free world. For those
to whom this doesn't mean anything, thing of him as Madeline Allbright on
steroids and with an attitude problem (and with the same job).

Anyway. Way back when (a bit over 20 years ago) in a universe not very far
away from where I live the Portuguese decided it was inappropriate for them
to be colonial masters any more in East Timor so they all went home. Back
then we all knew we were fighting the cold war and the communist menace and
the apple-pie and motherhood destroyers so Uncle Sam was real twitchy about
the thought of the commies moving in and taking over East Timor, even if
this just meant that all the people wanted to be communists (which they may
well not have done). It may have been that the USA would have liked them to
build a PIC making facility there and the commies were unlikely to want to
do this. [[Sorry, that's the best I can manage for PICs in this particular
story :-(]]. Whatever.

The big benevolent Indonesian neighbours (previously the Dutch East Indies
but the Dutch had gone home sooner than the Portuguese) eyed their little
neighbour and wondered if they would like to be protected. However. they
were worried that Uncle Sam may not approve of them being protective. I'm
told (and of course as ever, I may be wrong) that Henry Kissinger just
happened to turn up in Indonesia and talk to a few random people and then
left the country. I'm told, (and as always I may be .... etc) that 2 days
later the Indonesian decided that it would be a good idea to protect East
Timor and moved in en masse. Unfortunately there must have been a lot of
commies there so a lot of people had to die - so far in the last 20 years
its been around 200,000 which is pretty impressive for a country with under
1 million population (even less now). Most died in the first few years.

Now any intelligent right thinking person can see that the US of A didn't do
the invading or the killing or anything. They will also be aware that Henry
K toured all over all the time and that any possible slim correlation
between his movements and the Indonesians actions are statistically
insignificant (and I may be wrong etc anyway). The US of A didn't get
involved in stopping the Indonesians protecting the East Timorese because
its not the policeman of the world and, anyway,  it wasn't in its
enlightened self interest to do so (that's the phrase they were using on TV
a few days ago when Bill was here).

Some unreasonable people would like to suggest that the US winked or/and
far worse in this case, that by a simple stern word they could have changed
things ("Walk softly and carry a big stick") and that they ought. Others
will, of course disagree.

As to the comments by the spammer who started this thread - he's a bit of a
turkey methinks. Why he chooses to alienate any possible support by
criticising so objectionably I don't know. His point was thereby lost. What
that makes me and what happens to my point (whatever it is) we shall see.

Some think the happenings of the past add some moral imperative to the US's
involvement. Some don't.

The Aussies have blood on their hands because (1) They had oil interests
which would have been threatened by getting uppity with Indonesia (2)
Indonesia has the 4th largest standing army in the world (400,000 troops)
and an extremely impressive military capacity. Back then and approximately
still it was/is a military run state where those in power could do all the
things that the USA militia men say that their government is trying to do.
You don't want to rile a neighbour like that. The only weapon that Australia
has that is bigger and better than what the Indonesians have is the
police-man of the world. This is a very effective weapon but not always very
good at getting going (but irresistible once it does).  Being white
(largely) the Ozzies can be more sure of the POTW's help in  times of crisis
but being Ozzies, less sure than if they were Uncle Sammians. So they
chickened out and 200,000 people died. NZ did no better but we are
geographically hidden behind Oz and nobody would have noticed if the Kiwi
roared. Incidentally the Indonesians tortured (probably) and killed
(definitely) and mutilated (reportedly) a team of Australian television
reporters during the invasion and the Ozzies were too wimpy to do anything
about it and officially it never happened.

There has been an ongoing ground swell of protests in NZ and Oz ever since
but its never managed to gain popular support till now. 400 of our troops
are flying out NOW to act as UN peace keepers (don't laugh thats the same
pro rata as the US  sending about 50,000). The "militia men" (mainly WEST
Timorese armed and actively supported by the Indonesians, have promised to
"eat the hearts of UN peace keepers" and say they have 30,000 ex Portuguese
weapons (unlikely but ...) and promise they are ready to kill and die.
What's their mandate? Well, as most come from West Timor, none at all. Those
who are East Timorese are saying that the 80% who voted for independence
should be killed maimed and cowered until they succumb. This is not
democracy as I know it - nor, I believe, as the USA knows it. Which doesn't
per se make it the POTW's concern but ...

A problem is that the Indonesian military tends to operate as
franchises/"families"/independent units and not as an army as we and Y'All
know it. If the local boss doesn't like the politics of the orders he has,
he MAY decide to do otherwise. This MAY mean that the women and children
(and men too of course) murdering "militia men" may continue to be armed by
the I' military with highish tech weapons. If not, the peacekeepers should
get n top of the gross situation fairly easily with the problems being
sniping and guerilla action. If we see RPG,s and worse we will know that the
supply line is coming from elsewhere. The reference to Portuguese weapons
(30 years old) may be an attempt to "explain" ongoing milliary weapons
turning up but this will not fool anyone .

That should be enough for now :-)


               Russell McMahon

What can one man do?  Help the hungry for free at

From: Dennis Plunkett <dennisspamspam_OUTRDD.NECA.NEC.COM.AU>

{Quote hidden}

1999\09\17@145126 by John A. Craft

>well not have done). It may have been that the USA would have liked them to
>build a PIC making facility there and the commies were unlikely to want to

Excellent!  You slipped it in with so little effort as to be hardly notice.



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